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[ENTJ] how do you argue with an ENTJ?

FDG

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ENTJs love to learn... so you can use this technique... find out what they know... guess what they might have in their head as a conclusion. Agree to that conclusion first. Then invite them to argue about a new topic they don't know. They will sit there listening... shoot all your knowledge make them thing u r smart... then conclude it with your own conclusion.

There is also such a thing as two conclusions being true at the same time, from different angles.
 

SolitaryWalker

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I won't comment on the last part, because it's frankly disgusting to think relationships with other people as a place where control issues ensue.

:yes:
 

SolitaryWalker

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There is also such a thing as two conclusions being true at the same time, from different angles.

In that case it be the same conclusion clothed in different perspectives. Only the appearance is different, but not the essence. In that case the two conclusions be isomorphic.

Otherwise, it would be the case that conclusion 2 is simply supplemental material to conclusion one, the two do not interrelate. They are simply describing different aspects of the same essence. As for instance conclusion one shall be describing the body of the elephant and conclusion two the legs.
 

SolitaryWalker

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What else? I actually enjoy being proved wrong if I really am, so that I can incorporate the real truth into my model of reality..

I agree that ENTJs, as abstract thinkers and dominant Thinkers (primary T) would appreciate criticism of their ideas because they value truth beyond all else. The notion that they will argue tenacious until their opponent agrees with them was meant to underline the Extroverted Judgment tendency of theirs--or the need for an external manifestation of the soundness of their thoughts. Conversely, they also believe there should be an external manifestation for the lack of soundness of their thoughts, namely them ceasing to argue when proven wrong in an ostensible fashion. Whilst, an INTP by comparison goes by internal benchmarks and therefore will not need an external manifestation for their performance, therefore may be content with just knowing they have the truth without the 'opponent' sharing their beliefs. Moreover, INTPs tend not to see their discussion partners as opponents but merely agents that they rely on as means to the end of furthering their thought experiments for the sake of reaching their internal goal.


My emphasis of the reductio ad absurdum doctrine was not meant to be pejorative either. As aforementioned, ENTJs tend to rely heavily on external benchmarks. Hence, they often do not recognize the Ti subtle logic, and therefore I had to go at great lengths to show why that particular ENTJ notions were erroneous. Much like I did with proteanmix in this thread.




We may call to our aid the concept of absolute and comparative advantage in this case. A task is to be done, and if both parties are sufficiently healthy, they will readily recognize which one of the two is the fastest at its execution. If a project involves more than one task, division of labor will assure maximum efficiency, either by absolute (i.e. each party is better at one specific thing than the other) or by comparative (i.e. one party is better at everything, but he is better off at investing time into what he's the best at). Power struggles are present only when one of the subject is unwilling to concede that the other has a superior specific set of skills.

Yes, this should not be much of a problem if the merit of the two ENTJs in question is clearly assessed and they are assigned tasks that are in clear accord with their skills.
 
G

GirlAmerica

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My best friend is an ENTJ, and is much like FDG.
They are so crystal clear on what they are conveying. Their ability to write is such a gift in how it is presented to the person on the receiving end.

I have never seen anyone win an argument with her. I have seen them influence her, however she is nearly always correct in what she is saying.
If she isnt, it is truly her thought that it is the best perspective...and the beauty is that she is always willing to listen and even change if it is presented to her respectfully and she sees why it can be improved upon.

Just as in FDG's writings.....it is a presentation, a series of rationalizations....not someone cramming their opinion down your throat.
I suppose an unhealthy ENTJ, or even an escallated/upset ENTJ is VERY hard to 'win' a debate with....
 

FDG

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In that case it be the same conclusion clothed in different perspectives. Only the appearance is different, but not the essence. In that case the two conclusions be isomorphic.

Ah yeah, you're right.

Otherwise, it would be the case that conclusion 2 is simply supplemental material to conclusion one, the two do not interrelate. They are simply describing different aspects of the same essence. As for instance conclusion one shall be describing the body of the elephant and conclusion two the legs.

Yes, good example, that means one of the people that were arguing was missing the whole picture of an elephant.
 

wildcat

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You sort it out, tiger :D
I could.
I don't.
Do your own job.

Three men went to a forest and they were mongoloid and they plucked berries.
Gibberish.

Three mongoloid men plucked berries in a forest.

You sort it out.
 

SolitaryWalker

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My best friend is an ENTJ, and is much like FDG.
They are so crystal clear on what they are conveying. Their ability to write is such a gift in how it is presented to the person on the receiving end.....

Yes, clarity of thought is one of the primary gifts of dominant Thinking types. ENTJs often show mastery with conventional linguistic symbols because their Extroverted Judging faculty is most attuned with such a thing. Though INTPs by contrast, often invent their own language because they apply the same kind of a judgment that ENTJs apply to the outer world, to their inner world. Hence, they craft their own linguistic symbols. Hegel and Heidegger are the case in point. Though one merit of ENTJ exposition is that they tend to present their ideas in a logical order, this makes them easy to follow. Moreover, unlike INTPs, they tend not to engage in subtle logic, so their ratiocination is always manifest to an unaided eye.

However, one concern I have in regards to the ENTJs' extroverted judgment approach to ideas is that they tend to over-rely on external symbols and therefore are often unable to express their profound thoughts and intuitions that cannot be conveyed with conventional linguistic symbols. Moreover, their emphasis on ideas that are ostensible to all tends to preclude them from exploring ideas in greatest depth possible. This even undermines their introverted intuitions, as they are often forced to reject ideas that they do not fit the Te criteria. Or ideas that cannot be clearly expressed in conventional linguistic symbols, and be ostensible to all.





I have never seen anyone win an argument with her......
Again, dominant Ts are more likely to have the truth because of their proficiency with logic. It is quite the pity that the external focus of ENTJs precludes them from focusing intensely on their ideas. Our sciences are missing a lot.

Though again, the charge I bring up against the ENTJ scholarship is that their Extroverted Judgment approach to ideas precludes them from engaging in much profound inquiry that they are capable of. But nonetheless, their intense focus on logic would be much appreciated in the present day era of relativistic rubble we're burried underneath.

As relativism is a renunciation of the quest for objective truth and pursuit of logical cogency is intimately intertwined with the pursuit of truth. The most important aspect thereof, pursuit of truth follows as an entailment of affinity with logic.
 

SolitaryWalker

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Yes, good example, that means one of the people that were arguing was missing the whole picture of an elephant.

This does not necessarily imply the superiority of one perspective over the other as perspective A may have discovered leg 1 and perspective B discovered leg 2.
 

FDG

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This does not necessarily imply the superiority of one perspective over the other as perspective A may have discovered leg 1 and perspective B discovered leg 2.

True.
 

ptgatsby

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I'm more curious how you can agree with an ENTJ without them believing they have been given a green light on just about everything associated with it.

It seems like ENTJs don't reconize the difference between a "what" and a "how". It's rather like "I think we should eliminate poverty" + "I agree" = "Ok, I'm going to overthrow society, create a new government, and just plain kill anyone who is in my way"... slow down, yeesh.

/today's rant.
 

Domino

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I'm more curious how you can agree with an ENTJ without them believing they have been given a green light on just about everything associated with it.

It seems like ENTJs don't reconize the difference between a "what" and a "how". It's rather like "I think we should eliminate poverty" + "I agree" = "Ok, I'm going to overthrow society, create a new government, and just plain kill anyone who is in my way"... slow down, yeesh.

/today's rant.


hahahaha, my ENTJ best friend doesn't have any brakes either. You agree with her, then you mash the pedal and it goes straight to the floor. :D :doh:
 

runvardh

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I'm more curious how you can agree with an ENTJ without them believing they have been given a green light on just about everything associated with it.

It seems like ENTJs don't reconize the difference between a "what" and a "how". It's rather like "I think we should eliminate poverty" + "I agree" = "Ok, I'm going to overthrow society, create a new government, and just plain kill anyone who is in my way"... slow down, yeesh.

/today's rant.

That's when you ask them to detail the procedure first, then place objections on the details.
 

miss fortune

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yeah- I once had an ENTJ roommate in a triple apt. (the other roommate was an ESTJ, so I was a bit outnumbered). She said that she wanted to get a few things from the store to make the place look nicer so we told her that we'd chip in after she got back- she'd only mentioned 3 items so we thought we were safe. She came back with a carload of stuff and had spent over $1,000- unfortunatly we had agreed to split the costs- ugh- you give an ENTJ an inch and they will take something like 10 miles!
 

FDG

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I'm more curious how you can agree with an ENTJ without them believing they have been given a green light on just about everything associated with it.

It seems like ENTJs don't reconize the difference between a "what" and a "how". It's rather like "I think we should eliminate poverty" + "I agree" = "Ok, I'm going to overthrow society, create a new government, and just plain kill anyone who is in my way"... slow down, yeesh.

/today's rant.

ahahaha, good point!
 

LadyJaye

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I'm more curious how you can agree with an ENTJ without them believing they have been given a green light on just about everything associated with it.

It seems like ENTJs don't reconize the difference between a "what" and a "how". It's rather like "I think we should eliminate poverty" + "I agree" = "Ok, I'm going to overthrow society, create a new government, and just plain kill anyone who is in my way"... slow down, yeesh.

/today's rant.


It's just like that, isn't it?! :yes: It's almost comical, sometimes. Coming from their own mouths, "yes" means "yes", and "no" means "no" - but, from everyone else, "yes" still means "yes", but "no" means " undecided". :D
It all depends on their agenda.

There was an ENTJ guy that decided he wanted the two of us to go out - he was very charming, intelligent, and funny, but he was involved in organized crime, so I said no. This stunned him a little, but it didn't deter him, because I think he was convinced that I just hadn't seen reason yet. He even launched an elaborate campaign to wear me down. All very cleverly executed, too.

But I still said no. :D
 

Pangolin

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yeah- I once had an ENTJ roommate in a triple apt. (the other roommate was an ESTJ, so I was a bit outnumbered). She said that she wanted to get a few things from the store to make the place look nicer so we told her that we'd chip in after she got back- she'd only mentioned 3 items so we thought we were safe. She came back with a carload of stuff and had spent over $1,000- unfortunatly we had agreed to split the costs- ugh- you give an ENTJ an inch and they will take something like 10 miles!

At that point, I'd indicate that I had agreed to split the cost for the 3 mentioned items, and would proffer 1/3 of the cost of those, leaving it up to the ENTJ to either soak the cost of the rest of the crap, or take the stuff back. If you only agreed on 3 items, you only agreed on 3 items. Stand firm a little.
 

Gabe

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"The group is a professional fraternity and I'm one of the last of the "old guard" of members. I've always beleived that we should treat pledges as human beings, which means that since I was initiated I've helped pledged study, got them out of trouble with actives, fed them home cooked meals and such- this group of ENTJs all were recipients of my help. Unfortunatly, most of them seem to have forgotten that they needed some help to get where they are now and are acting exactly like the actives they needed protection from. I'm still the one who's nice to pledges and advocates for them, which puts me at odds with the people who I helped get to where they are.

The pledge in question (the ENFP) is a friend of mine and is a lot more competent than most of the ENTJs were as pledges, but she occasionally talks back and doesn't always stick to status quo. When the ENTJs (there's a clique of 3 of them) decided to try and force her to do something that is blatently against national fraternity law, she refused, and now they're trying to get her expelled for being disrespectful.

Since I have some influence in the organization and am the only one who knows fraternity law I'm supposed to convince them to drop it.

Hope this clarifies things a bit"

What a bunch of assholes.
What do you have to be 'competent' at in a fraternity?
Why are you 'supposed to' stick up for your friend? Are you reluctant to? I'll have to temporarily ignore whatever type these people might be, but anyone who think's they're ALWAYS right should be neutralized.
Anyway, I have almost now knowledge of fraternity politics. But it couldn't hurt to mention to them that they wouldn't be anywhere without you.
You said you have damaging information on them? I would say that if they're being such jerks they don't deserve to have thier secrets kept. Now (at the risk of sounding really stupid here) since you say you have the law on your side, is there any higher up within the organization that you can bring this issue to?
 

persianeyes

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I'm in an organization which has an abnormally high percentage of ENTJs, which is vaguely scary! :) This usually isn't a problem, but some of them have recently stepped over the line on an issue, and I, as the wise old bourbon drinking grandma on the porch of the organization, am expected to set them straight. Not cool.

How on earth does one argue a point with ENTJs? They seem so entirely convinced that they are more logical and correct than I am! I'd really appreciate some insight since I'm kind of dreading confronting them. I can play organization politics and threaten to air long buried skeletons with the best of them, but I'm kind of scared of large groups of people :blush: especially ENTJs.

Please help?


Oh yea, been there, done that.. it seems scary and i know how you feel, kinda trapped and outspoken?
Don't worry, just be sure to follow my advise and you'll be just fine ;)

Advise #1: stick to your topic and make sure you have your facts streight, and use logic, they don't like having opinions and unnecissary comments thrown at them.
Advise #2: They respect someone who stands up for ehat they believe, don't back down, if they lose an argument or debate you will surely win their respect.
Advise #3: Be respectful, let them know that your listening to their side and try finding a nuetral perspective, so everyone agrees.

hope that helped.. I've had couple of arguements with an ENTJ and he really respected my passionate beliefs and the way I stood up for them.
 

Ezra

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How on earth does one argue a point with ENTJs? They seem so entirely convinced that they are more logical and correct than I am! I'd really appreciate some insight since I'm kind of dreading confronting them. I can play organization politics and threaten to air long buried skeletons with the best of them, but I'm kind of scared of large groups of people :blush: especially ENTJs.

Quite simply, you can't. ;)

Seriously though, expect to lose, unless your case is extremely valid. Basically, the best way to argue is to be firm, confident and know what you're talking about. You have to be able to stand your ground and not run off because they've cut you down based on one of your statements. Ensure you have an arsenal of points at your disposal. This is the only way you will ever be able to get an ENTJ to say "good point", or something along those lines.
 
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