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  1. #51
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by runvardh View Post
    Yup, male in Calgary; that's too bad, I could use meeting someone who is single and local for once ><
    Ha, she's 43 and married with 4 kids, so...

    Yeah, I don't have friends who are into this stuff and I get long lulls between calls here.
    The price of introversion my friend
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  2. #52
    にゃん runvardh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Ha, she's 43 and married with 4 kids, so...
    That's about typical of my luck, actually.

    The price of introversion my friend
    Na, it's the price of having boring friends
    Dreams are best served manifest and tangible.

    INFP, 6w7, IEI

    I accept no responsibility, what so ever, for the fact that I exist; I do, however, accept full responsibility for what I do while I exist.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  3. #53
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by runvardh View Post
    Na, it's the price of having boring friends


    Well, I may be a pain in the ass, but one thing nobody can say of me is that I'm boring!

    Anyway it's off to bed for me - those kids will pounce on me at 7am guaranteed!! Carry on without me
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Just hold your ground and stick to making a point. You'd outdo them on logic because Ti gives you a stronger thinking faculty. Then their Te gives them. I've overpowered an ENTJ like this once. After this he wasnt willing to argue with me anymore because he could not help but argue strictly for the sake of winning the argument. After he began doubting his ability to do this, he rescinded.

    You can take him head on, watch him lose confidence as you get further into in depth analysis. ENTJs thrive on external, social-aspects of T work.

    Keep in mind, the ENTJ will get frustrated after he sees you uninfluenced by his repetitive attempts to accept his point of view, or unmoved emotionally. These two traits are quite common in ITPs, and for this reason ENTJs, after much experience with this type tend to doubt their ability to debate with them on a level of desired competence. They often argue to convince or inspire, ITPs are not easily deterred because of their radical thinking preferrence which surpasses even that of the ENTJs.

    Keep in mind that ITPs have an edge in real of pure reason as their thoughts run deeper(Ti), and bend more easily (depend less on external factors), than that of the ENTJ. As aforementioned, the ENTJ will only feel more confident in the beginning, as soon as you push the discussion into more rigorous analysis they will feel ill-equipped.
    I don't agree. The most important aspect is that ENTJ's will argue based on empirical evidence and practical applications. They are likely to be convinced more by facts than anything. As a Ti dominant you will gain points by using this.

    I don't think Ti has an edge over Te, or that the ti form of thinking is deeper and has and edge. Te and Ti are both necessary in science and philosophy and I think none have an absolute advantage over the other.

  5. #55
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick View Post
    I don't agree. The most important aspect is that ENTJ's will argue based on empirical evidence and practical applications. They are likely to be convinced more by facts than anything. As a Ti dominant you will gain points by using this.

    I don't think Ti has an edge over Te. Both are necessary in science and philosophy and I think none have an absolute advantage over the other.
    What I meant by the claim that Ti has an edge over Te is that it is more germane to the quintissence of 'Thinking'. Or in colloquial terms, it is more T than Te.

    Jung inherited the notion from Schopenhauer that the essence of mind is unconscious. There is no distinction between the conscious and the unconscious--all of mind is unconscious, conscious is only an external manifestation of the unconscious.

    Jung also argued that Introverts are closer in tune with their unconscious. All functions stem from the mind. We equate the mind with the unconscious. Thus the closer a function is to the mind/unconscious, the stronger it is.

    Te and Ti derive from the same quintissence--Thinking. Introverted Thinking is more of a 'Thinking' function, because it is closer to the unconscious element of 'Thinking'.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------

    You seem to be saying that by external standards, it is hard to tell which is superior. As we see Te tends to be more successful in science, and Ti in philosophy. Both tend to be successful in intellectual endeavors, and it is hard to tell which one has an edge. That is a claim that I do not attempt to refute.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    My point is, as aforementioned, is that ITPs have a stronger 'T'.

    We tend to associate tough-mindedness and forcefulness of opinion with a highly developed Thinking faculty. Because ITPs are more 'T' than ETJs, their mindset tends to be tougher, and therefore more likely to emerge victorious in the head-on clash.

    Thus, whilst an ENTJ may express more confidence in himself being logical, the ITP will actually be the one more confident of the two because his thinking preferrence is stronger. My point was that the ITP need not be intimidated by ENTJ's confidence in his reasoning, as he actually has more of this element himself.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  6. #56
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    What I meant by the claim that Ti has an edge over Te is that it is more germane to the quintissence of 'Thinking'. Or in colloquial terms, it is more T than Te.

    Jung inherited the notion from Schopenhauer that the essence of mind is unconscious. There is no distinction between the conscious and the unconscious--all of mind is unconscious, conscious is only an external manifestation of the unconscious.

    Jung also argued that Introverts are closer in tune with their unconscious. All functions stem from the mind. We equate the mind with the unconscious. Thus the closer a function is to the mind/unconscious, the stronger it is.

    Te and Ti derive from the same quintissence--Thinking. Introverted Thinking is more of a 'Thinking' function, because it is closer to the unconscious element of 'Thinking'.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------

    You seem to be saying that by external standards, it is hard to tell which is superior. As we see Te tends to be more successful in science, and Ti in philosophy. Both tend to be successful in intellectual endeavors, and it is hard to tell which one has an edge. That is a claim that I do not attempt to refute.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    My point is, as aforementioned, is that ITPs have a stronger 'T'.

    We tend to associate tough-mindedness and forcefulness of opinion with a highly developed Thinking faculty. Because ITPs are more 'T' than ETJs, their mindset tends to be tougher, and therefore more likely to emerge victorious in the head-on clash.

    Thus, whilst an ENTJ may express more confidence in himself being logical, the ITP will actually be the one more confident of the two because his thinking preferrence is stronger. My point was that the ITP need not be intimidated by ENTJ's confidence in his reasoning, as he actually has more of this element himself.
    Just like ENTJs have stronger N.

  7. #57
    Scream down the boulevard LadyJaye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick View Post
    Assuming they really are ENTJ, it's really not that difficult. Remain as calm as possible and argue logically with an emphasis on practical applications. Show that you are objective and have a measured viewpoint. Use facts and data to prove your points. Above all, do not get emotional or attack them personally or you will lost their respect and your credibility in their eyes.


    Point me toward danger - I'm ready!


    I think this is a very accurate statement - I employ this when dealing with my best friend. It keeps communication clear and uncluttered, as she tends to get impatient with redundancy and "emotional" value judgments.

    With that said, personality type or no, trying to have someone expelled because they don't agree with someone else's stance is unacceptable behaviour. It's arrogant and tyrannical.

  8. #58
    Senior Member Bushranger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Whilst I'll agree that this can be done, I wouldn't advise it where losing the goodwill of the ENTJ can have consequences, especially on others. My experience is that they might hold a grudge... but if they do, it won't be because you beat them - they'll respect you for that - the grudge will be because you humiliated them in front of others. Like I said, pride is a big thing... and an ENTJ with a grudge can REALLY get in the way of pretty much anything you want to do. Easier to do than undo, so best avoided.
    Not as big an issue if you can humiliate them all simultaneously. It can have the advantage of weakening the clique and increasing your influence simultaneously.

    Unfortunately I can't claim to have argued with ENTJs in groups before.
    I'll get you my pretty, and your little hermit crab too!

  9. #59
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    the secrets would completely rip them apart.....

  10. #60
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascademn View Post
    This is what is funny to me. I had a fallout with an ENTJ because she refused to acknowledge that someone else (me) could have a different view of reality that was equally valid. In other words, I felt I was open to her views, but she was not open to mine in the slightest, and there was no room in her little worldview for my perspective.
    Well, we generally don't care about imposing our views. So if I say that for me your world-view is not coherent, it doesn't mean you can't keep on using it, just that my personal opinion is that is not coherent. Let's put it this way: there are certain events, and uncertain events. The former set does not entail the possibility of two mutually exclusive events being true, so yes it's very black and white.

    Keep in mind, the ENTJ will get frustrated after he sees you uninfluenced by his repetitive attempts to accept his point of view, or unmoved emotionally. These two traits are quite common in ITPs, and for this reason ENTJs, after much experience with this type tend to doubt their ability to debate with them on a level of desired competence. They often argue to convince or inspire, ITPs are not easily deterred because of their radical thinking preferrence which surpasses even that of the ENTJs.
    Man, I think you haven't understood your thought process. When the debate lasts for too long, we start thinking "why am I here doing this stuff, when I could occupy my time with more fun activities"? In any case IRL I've always welcomed arguing with ITPs because I know that their feedback is always unbiased.

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