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  1. #11
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    there are several ENTJs (that's what the scary part is!) and I'm really not willing to let my friend get kicked out! Does the possession of devastating information on a couple of them make a difference at all? And how do you get an N to realize that S people aren't idiots?

  2. #12
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Well first of all you have to understand something: we are not debating for the sake of being right. We get nothing out of having erroneous information, so when we insist it's because we genuinely believe that the world is the way we see it, and that other opinions are "wrong" simply because they don't represent accurately reality.

    So, the easiest way is:
    - Point out how reality is different, if this is the issue
    - Point out how the consequences of their behavior/decisions will lead to a course of action that doesn't coincide with what they have predicted

  3. #13
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    so having the law on my side helps?

    ( feels a slight glimmer of hope!)

  4. #14
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    so having the law on my side helps?

    ( feels a slight glimmer of hope!)
    Well I don't know what the issue is, it sounds more complicated than I may have thought. Bear in mind that if the individuals are unhealthy, no advice will be enough.

  5. #15
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    there are several ENTJs (that's what the scary part is!) and I'm really not willing to let my friend get kicked out! Does the possession of devastating information on a couple of them make a difference at all? And how do you get an N to realize that S people aren't idiots?
    Hey! I don't think S people are idiots!!

    I don't know... it depends on your relationship with any/all of them. Do they know you particularly well? Do they trust you? Have you earned some merit in their eyes for reliable, hard work of a high standard? Looking from their POV, do you think they'd value you and your opinions?

    If not, then you're lost here... though it can be built up for future occasions. Blackmail won't work really... they'll just fire you as well and 'come out' of their own accord with whatever the secret was, being sure to spin it not only in their favour, but mentioning how you were going to 'twist' it to blackmail them. Always backfires, that one.

    Is there a way you could put it to them that it's in their interest not to fire this person? Or the company's interest?

    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    we genuinely believe that the world is the way we see it, and that other opinions are "wrong" simply because they don't represent accurately reality.
    Yes... I see this in my lot. I laughed affectionately when I read that

    So, the easiest way is:
    - Point out how reality is different, if this is the issue
    - Point out how the consequences of their behavior/decisions will lead to a course of action that doesn't coincide with what they have predicted
    This tends to be my function in the lives of the ENTJ's I know. It does work, but you have to do it calmly and using evidence and examples. Point out that when they were drawing their conclusions about the nature of reality, there were a few bits of crucial information that they neglected to take into account. You shouldn't have to go far to find plenty of examples

    (no offence, dear ones... lol)

    edit - if possible, spin it to look like it's someone else's fault that they missed that information - that the people who were supposed to give it to them witheld it from them - this will help them to save face, something quite important.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

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  6. #16
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Well first of all you have to understand something: we are not debating for the sake of being right. We get nothing out of having erroneous information, so when we insist it's because we genuinely believe that the world is the way we see it, and that other opinions are "wrong" simply because they don't represent accurately reality.
    This is what is funny to me. I had a fallout with an ENTJ because she refused to acknowledge that someone else (me) could have a different view of reality that was equally valid. In other words, I felt I was open to her views, but she was not open to mine in the slightest, and there was no room in her little worldview for my perspective.

  7. #17
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    The group is a professional fraternity and I'm one of the last of the "old guard" of members. I've always beleived that we should treat pledges as human beings, which means that since I was initiated I've helped pledged study, got them out of trouble with actives, fed them home cooked meals and such- this group of ENTJs all were recipients of my help. Unfortunatly, most of them seem to have forgotten that they needed some help to get where they are now and are acting exactly like the actives they needed protection from. I'm still the one who's nice to pledges and advocates for them, which puts me at odds with the people who I helped get to where they are.

    The pledge in question (the ENFP) is a friend of mine and is a lot more competent than most of the ENTJs were as pledges, but she occasionally talks back and doesn't always stick to status quo. When the ENTJs (there's a clique of 3 of them) decided to try and force her to do something that is blatently against national fraternity law, she refused, and now they're trying to get her expelled for being disrespectful.

    Since I have some influence in the organization and am the only one who knows fraternity law I'm supposed to convince them to drop it.

    Hope this clarifies things a bit!

  8. #18
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Yes that does make a big difference. It means you are in a good position to add to what you say, following the advice of FDG there, that since you've known them you've helped them a lot of times but you've never asked for anything, so you'd like them to consider this for you. Only say that after you've given the explanation, clearly and calmly, of the bigger picture and how their recent decisions could potentially harm the organization if they become too habitual and ingrained.

    You could point out the information they've missed as perhaps the good stuff your friend does, that benefits everyone, and how they'd all be losing out on a great asset if they didn't give her another chance. Say she's just new and needs time to learn how to go through the proper channels to get things done.

    But if they do agree to it, you've also got to let your friend know that they've got to try and rein in the impulsiveness a bit, cos you won't be able to rescue her a second time.

    I still think you'll have to find a suitable scapegoat for them though, to blame for why they didn't realise the damage they were doing. Pride is big up there on ENTJ's vice list, and finding a scapegoat to take the blame (even if it's you - "I should've told you this before and I'm sorry I didn't, but I'm telling you now and it's still not too late...") for their lack of regard for other info is the ENTJ equivalent of couching something in soft/nice/gentle tones that reassure them that you still like them, for the ENFJ.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

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  9. #19
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    thanks!

  10. #20
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    It's SO not easy though... even when I know him really well I have to catch him off guard... Ne's a definite advantage.

    You know that part in the Simpson's movie where they're trying to persuade Mr Burns of something, and Apu starts trying to persuade him to 'look within his heart to see that the only right thing to do for the benefit of mankind etc etc', and Smithers is standing behind gesturing furiously 'no, no, no!' just before Burns releases the hounds?

    Take note of that... lol

    LOL!!! *steeples fingers* Excellent.
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