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  1. #101
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    ENTJs love to learn... so you can use this technique... find out what they know... guess what they might have in their head as a conclusion. Agree to that conclusion first. Then invite them to argue about a new topic they don't know. They will sit there listening... shoot all your knowledge make them thing u r smart... then conclude it with your own conclusion.
    There is also such a thing as two conclusions being true at the same time, from different angles.

  2. #102
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    I won't comment on the last part, because it's frankly disgusting to think relationships with other people as a place where control issues ensue.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  3. #103
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    There is also such a thing as two conclusions being true at the same time, from different angles.
    In that case it be the same conclusion clothed in different perspectives. Only the appearance is different, but not the essence. In that case the two conclusions be isomorphic.

    Otherwise, it would be the case that conclusion 2 is simply supplemental material to conclusion one, the two do not interrelate. They are simply describing different aspects of the same essence. As for instance conclusion one shall be describing the body of the elephant and conclusion two the legs.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  4. #104
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post


    What else? I actually enjoy being proved wrong if I really am, so that I can incorporate the real truth into my model of reality..
    I agree that ENTJs, as abstract thinkers and dominant Thinkers (primary T) would appreciate criticism of their ideas because they value truth beyond all else. The notion that they will argue tenacious until their opponent agrees with them was meant to underline the Extroverted Judgment tendency of theirs--or the need for an external manifestation of the soundness of their thoughts. Conversely, they also believe there should be an external manifestation for the lack of soundness of their thoughts, namely them ceasing to argue when proven wrong in an ostensible fashion. Whilst, an INTP by comparison goes by internal benchmarks and therefore will not need an external manifestation for their performance, therefore may be content with just knowing they have the truth without the 'opponent' sharing their beliefs. Moreover, INTPs tend not to see their discussion partners as opponents but merely agents that they rely on as means to the end of furthering their thought experiments for the sake of reaching their internal goal.


    My emphasis of the reductio ad absurdum doctrine was not meant to be pejorative either. As aforementioned, ENTJs tend to rely heavily on external benchmarks. Hence, they often do not recognize the Ti subtle logic, and therefore I had to go at great lengths to show why that particular ENTJ notions were erroneous. Much like I did with proteanmix in this thread.




    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    We may call to our aid the concept of absolute and comparative advantage in this case. A task is to be done, and if both parties are sufficiently healthy, they will readily recognize which one of the two is the fastest at its execution. If a project involves more than one task, division of labor will assure maximum efficiency, either by absolute (i.e. each party is better at one specific thing than the other) or by comparative (i.e. one party is better at everything, but he is better off at investing time into what he's the best at). Power struggles are present only when one of the subject is unwilling to concede that the other has a superior specific set of skills.
    Yes, this should not be much of a problem if the merit of the two ENTJs in question is clearly assessed and they are assigned tasks that are in clear accord with their skills.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  5. #105
    GirlAmerica
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    My best friend is an ENTJ, and is much like FDG.
    They are so crystal clear on what they are conveying. Their ability to write is such a gift in how it is presented to the person on the receiving end.

    I have never seen anyone win an argument with her. I have seen them influence her, however she is nearly always correct in what she is saying.
    If she isnt, it is truly her thought that it is the best perspective...and the beauty is that she is always willing to listen and even change if it is presented to her respectfully and she sees why it can be improved upon.

    Just as in FDG's writings.....it is a presentation, a series of rationalizations....not someone cramming their opinion down your throat.
    I suppose an unhealthy ENTJ, or even an escallated/upset ENTJ is VERY hard to 'win' a debate with....

  6. #106
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    In that case it be the same conclusion clothed in different perspectives. Only the appearance is different, but not the essence. In that case the two conclusions be isomorphic.
    Ah yeah, you're right.

    Otherwise, it would be the case that conclusion 2 is simply supplemental material to conclusion one, the two do not interrelate. They are simply describing different aspects of the same essence. As for instance conclusion one shall be describing the body of the elephant and conclusion two the legs.
    Yes, good example, that means one of the people that were arguing was missing the whole picture of an elephant.

  7. #107
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Santtu View Post
    You sort it out, tiger
    I could.
    I don't.
    Do your own job.

    Three men went to a forest and they were mongoloid and they plucked berries.
    Gibberish.

    Three mongoloid men plucked berries in a forest.

    You sort it out.

  8. #108
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GirlAmerica View Post
    My best friend is an ENTJ, and is much like FDG.
    They are so crystal clear on what they are conveying. Their ability to write is such a gift in how it is presented to the person on the receiving end.....
    Yes, clarity of thought is one of the primary gifts of dominant Thinking types. ENTJs often show mastery with conventional linguistic symbols because their Extroverted Judging faculty is most attuned with such a thing. Though INTPs by contrast, often invent their own language because they apply the same kind of a judgment that ENTJs apply to the outer world, to their inner world. Hence, they craft their own linguistic symbols. Hegel and Heidegger are the case in point. Though one merit of ENTJ exposition is that they tend to present their ideas in a logical order, this makes them easy to follow. Moreover, unlike INTPs, they tend not to engage in subtle logic, so their ratiocination is always manifest to an unaided eye.

    However, one concern I have in regards to the ENTJs' extroverted judgment approach to ideas is that they tend to over-rely on external symbols and therefore are often unable to express their profound thoughts and intuitions that cannot be conveyed with conventional linguistic symbols. Moreover, their emphasis on ideas that are ostensible to all tends to preclude them from exploring ideas in greatest depth possible. This even undermines their introverted intuitions, as they are often forced to reject ideas that they do not fit the Te criteria. Or ideas that cannot be clearly expressed in conventional linguistic symbols, and be ostensible to all.





    Quote Originally Posted by GirlAmerica View Post
    I have never seen anyone win an argument with her......
    Again, dominant Ts are more likely to have the truth because of their proficiency with logic. It is quite the pity that the external focus of ENTJs precludes them from focusing intensely on their ideas. Our sciences are missing a lot.

    Though again, the charge I bring up against the ENTJ scholarship is that their Extroverted Judgment approach to ideas precludes them from engaging in much profound inquiry that they are capable of. But nonetheless, their intense focus on logic would be much appreciated in the present day era of relativistic rubble we're burried underneath.

    As relativism is a renunciation of the quest for objective truth and pursuit of logical cogency is intimately intertwined with the pursuit of truth. The most important aspect thereof, pursuit of truth follows as an entailment of affinity with logic.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  9. #109
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post



    Yes, good example, that means one of the people that were arguing was missing the whole picture of an elephant.
    This does not necessarily imply the superiority of one perspective over the other as perspective A may have discovered leg 1 and perspective B discovered leg 2.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  10. #110
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    This does not necessarily imply the superiority of one perspective over the other as perspective A may have discovered leg 1 and perspective B discovered leg 2.
    True.

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