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  1. #91
    Member Maha Raj's Avatar
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    just don't mess with ENTJs because....they are more logical and correct than you are! i just love to have an ENTJ as a brother...

  2. #92
    filling some space UnitOfPopulation's Avatar
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    Bah, ENTJ's too may need their plans put together. Go, improve them, show their errors. Dominate ENTJ's, establish your command and then leave them wonder what hit them, while stopping to care about their supposed power against you. Make them doubt themselves. Show that they are uninformed. Show that suboptimal results follow from their premises. Then if they suggest an ineffective solution, beat it down with giving your (working) solution in the same breath. Then leave the sense of feeling that you are not interested of this domination thing, you just want to bring processes to the good conclusions, and you'll resent any domineering behaviour. Be determined, even a bit harsh, but respectful in all that, and you find arguing with an ENTJ quite productive. This is more educational for the ENTJ if you seem to desire less of an ego boost than the ENTJ.

    If you can't improve their work, show good procedures or you are afraid of them, you can forget about arguing with them.

    If you want to establish a long relationship with them (friend, acquintance, business, etc), don't show the desire to beat them down totally; instead, maintain enough common ground that they believe to have some control over you. In reality, we have control over others, and ENTJ feel ok to have clearly defined controls over one another, if they feel the lack of freedom is justified by the profits gained from the relationship. It helps if the lack of freedom is the usual standard for the kind of relationship. Don't expect anything extra.

    this is just been a big, fat IMHO speak.

  3. #93
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maha Raj View Post
    just don't mess with ENTJs because....they are more logical and correct than you are! i just love to have an ENTJ as a brother...
    Older brother?
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  4. #94
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Santtu View Post
    Bah, ENTJ's too may need their plans put together. Go, improve them, show their errors. Dominate ENTJ's, establish your command and then leave them wonder what hit them, while stopping to care about their supposed power against you. Make them doubt themselves. Show that they are uninformed. Show that suboptimal results follow from their premises.
    I just want to say, that when somebody does that I don't feel dominated. I generally even ask directly other people for more information since it's the fastest way to get it, rather than waiting for them to trumple upon me.

    Then if they suggest an ineffective solution, beat it down with giving your (working) solution in the same breath.
    Why do you have to beat it down? Why not just suggesting and pointing out the flaws? What would be the difference?

    Be determined, even a bit harsh, but respectful in all that, and you find arguing with an ENTJ quite productive. This is more educational for the ENTJ if you seem to desire less of an ego boost than the ENTJ.
    Being harsh doesn't truly work for me, just as it doesn't work for the majority of people. Anything spoken to me in a commanding tone is registered as wrong.

    I won't comment on the last part, because it's frankly disgusting to think relationships with other people as a place where control issues ensue.

  5. #95
    Senior Member alcea rosea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascademn View Post
    You don't.

    Seriously, I'd like to know the answer. :-) In my experience, there's not much 'point' in it.
    I agree. I haven't succeeded to make any kind of point when disagreeing with an ENTJ...

  6. #96
    filling some space UnitOfPopulation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    I just want to say, that when somebody does that I don't feel dominated. I generally even ask directly other people for more information since it's the fastest way to get it, rather than waiting for them to trumple upon me.
    I didn't mean that ENTJ would feel being dominated by having their errors pointed out. That would have to be done with other ways, if at all. In the best arguments, there would be no such domination game going on. More on this in later responses, below.

    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Why do you have to beat it down? Why not just suggesting and pointing out the flaws? What would be the difference?
    I just used an exaggaration to express the same idea. I'd say it would be useless to waste time by kicking a dead horse. On the contrary, I'd suggest for the person arguing a point with an ENTJ to immediately (and confidently) to suggest their own solutions after the errors in the previous solution have been pointed out.
    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Being harsh doesn't truly work for me, just as it doesn't work for the majority of people. Anything spoken to me in a commanding tone is registered as wrong.

    I won't comment on the last part, because it's frankly disgusting to think relationships with other people as a place where control issues ensue.
    A matter of language and tone, and a point of view. Another person's war is other person's conversation. My intent was to see the issue from the POV of a gentler soul, and exaggarate it a bit.

    I see ENTJ as someone prone to using scare tactics. It's good if you don't recognize this from yourself. If they are appeals to consequences, scaring the other with the law in an inappropriate situation, if it's the use of body language, tone of voice, anything.. well, those can also be handled by being unimpressed, calm and just handling the issues raised. The other option would be to give them back the same treatment. Of course there will have to be some substance to back it all up. It also demands careful balance to match the other person's force and not to go overboard. One has to keep cool if the things get hot.

    Nobody will get ENTJ's appreciation by being too hostile in a given situation, too harsh, etc.. but using some of that force can work as a reminder to how unpleasant things can go. With balanced participants, people notice where they've gotten themselves into, and back off a bit and continue the conversation in a calmer tone.

    I recommend to match ENTJ's level of hostility. If there's none, don't do it. If there's some, match it. What I mean by hostility is something along the line of assertivity and aggression, being demanding, (seemingly) inconsiderate, A-type person, confrontative, goal-driven, etc. All of these behaviours can be justified in a situation. Usually people don't use the full power of the law to their advantage, or will be hesitating to consider all the negotiable items. I'd advise against such less-than-100%-effort in an argument with ENTJ.

    All normal rules for reasonable behaviour still apply.

    Again, if you don't participate in unneeded power struggles, use scaring tactics etc, congratulations. I don't believe you to do so. Indeed, your forum presence has earned you a reputation as a most reasonable and well-informed person.

  7. #97
    Member Maha Raj's Avatar
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    yes, older brother...
    "Here I am! Now what are your other two wishes?"

  8. #98
    filling some space UnitOfPopulation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alcearos View Post
    I agree. I haven't succeeded to make any kind of point when disagreeing with an ENTJ...
    It's hard for an F.

  9. #99
    Member Maha Raj's Avatar
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    ENTJs are perfectionist... Unlike an ENTP, they wouldn't start a job unless they are fully confident, that they have everything to complete that job. So the arguing is same. When they are arguing they have the conclusion ready in their head. Only thing they do is to bring you down to that conclusion. Only time you win with ENTJ is when you (may be coincidently) have the same conclusion as they have.

    ENTJs love to learn... so you can use this technique... find out what they know... guess what they might have in their head as a conclusion. Agree to that conclusion first. Then invite them to argue about a new topic they don't know. They will sit there listening... shoot all your knowledge make them thing u r smart... then conclude it with your own conclusion.

    They may go research and come back and fight with you with their own conclusion... but if that's research is going to take a long time, they wouldn't waste their time... so they simply let u win...

    ENTPs are also perfectionist by they don't "finish" the job. They don't have any fucking conclusions... or u could say they have millions of conclusions... and they will prove to you that ur conclusion is also possible and go on and on explaining how it is possible... and start inverting new things that can be possible and ...go on blah blah blah...
    "Here I am! Now what are your other two wishes?"

  10. #100
    にゃん runvardh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Santtu View Post
    It's hard for an F.
    That's why I don't argue, I let them fail without me. I'll impart my wisdom when they come crawling back begging for my input.
    Dreams are best served manifest and tangible.

    INFP, 6w7, IEI

    I accept no responsibility, what so ever, for the fact that I exist; I do, however, accept full responsibility for what I do while I exist.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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