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Thread: INTP Rebellion

  1. #11
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schizm View Post
    I just now realized, at the age of 24, that my desire to rebel against the system caused me to miss a lot of opportunity. Several opportunities for development were sabotaged. Is this a common realization for INTP's(or INTJ's?) approaching their middle 20's?
    No.

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    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    And usually, you have to work WITHIN the system to really change it.
    This is so completely true. If people see you coming they prepare for you. In my experience people that actually manage to change the system are the ones who are already in it, know how to maneuver/manipulate it, and subvert it. Often it's the last person anyone would expect to do such a thing. And the system can be whatever atmosphere you find yourself in. At my last retail job before I made the plunge into my current penitentiary, they had to change their hiring policy because of some dirty deed they tried to do to me because I changed my work schedule. They weren't explicit and clear in their policy and each manager enforced it as they saw fit with no consistency.

    I don't think rebelling means always going out with guns ablaze and leaving a bloody trail in your wake.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
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    Social Penetration Theory 2
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  3. #13
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    You should stop assuming that NTs are not people.

    We're rational. But we are still human. And we have feelings. So we act in ways that are not entirely rational sometimes.
    Yes, of course I know that. But how do I get them to see that? They usually don't get that, or at least don't take it very well.

    For INTPs, our first response is usually withdrawal from the offending system. (And I think this is what you do as well. Perhaps it is an INxx thing... or just an Ixxx thing. Or something else, but you get the point.)
    I wouldn't go around withdrawing from systems altogether without a viable/acceptable alternative. I would endure any system rather than have no structure at all. Of course, just because I work within a particular system, and accept it's rules doesn't mean that I actually like it... I may well hate it if it's a bad system.

    But the withdrawal can't be complete because (1) Ne shows us the potential of the system, what it COULD be at its most efficient/powerful, and (2) Ti shows us a better way, what the system SHOULD be rationally.

    So on one hand we feel powerless to change anything because people are just set in their ways and the system (the current one, the "inefficient" one) has a life of its own. It is like a monster. And yet we're compelled to engage.
    I guess this is really different. I don't reenvision the whole system... I just notice particular flaws in it that grate me, and I don't really see potential, as much as I see whether it's the best system available now, and whether it works/will work reasonably well for me and what I want/need out of it, despite having flaws/inefficiencies.

    I think this is why it is important for INTPs to develop their extroverted functions. We need info from the outer world to be effective (Ne) and we need to be able to relate to people in constructive ways (Fe). Withdrawing usually leads to a Ti+Si combination which is destructive -- basically, griping about the system because it doesn't match what we think it should, without doing ANYTHING about it whatsoever.
    Well, a person does need to develop both Introverted and Extraverted functions. But I think there's a danger in developing your inferior too early in life. I think you need to be reasonably stable in your other functions to develop it safely, and without neglecting your higher functions in favor of it.

    You see bitching about "the system" more from ISTPs. INTPs tend to see things as more benign, not purposefully malignant. ISTPs tend to be more suspicious -- because they're engaging through Se (they more easily see the tangible effects, not the many possibilities of something), and the Ni thing suggests to them it's all about interpretation, so someone somewhere is spinning things to their advantage.
    Actually, I'm kind of suspicious as well. Except I usually worry that everything /everyone is specifically working against me, and is out to get me. Sometimes I even worry I'm working against myself, and distrust myself as well. So it may not be that I trust the system more than they do, it may simply be that I have so little trust in everything (even my own perceptions), that I simply don't have any less trust in "the system" than in anything else.

    It's really interesting to see the differences/similarities between INTP and other types.

  4. #14
    Senior Member Roger Mexico's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    Well, it doesn't really make sense to me. I would think that if NT's are "logical," then they would take whatever the most logical course of action was for a given situation. Even if they realized that the organization of the system wasn't logical, wouldn't they still realize that it was more effective to work within it when they don't have the resources to actually do anything against it, and that sitting outside of it accomplishing nothing and acting unusual is just... pointless?

    And I mean, what's the point of just decrying the system? It's obviously there for a reason, and acting in the exact opposite direction isn't necessarily better, it's just trading one negative extreme for another. I'm not saying don't protest certain aspects, but you just have to "choose your battles," so to speak.

    Basically, I don't understand the idea of not liking the system just because it's "the system." I kind of understand working against it when there's an actual problem with a particular aspect of it, though.

    Hmm, I think a lot of NTJ's see things this way. I don't think I know an INTJ who doesn't consider themself a Libertarian--y'know, let the market regulate itself within a minimal framework of basic laws. It's a J thing to go "that's how things are. Problem solved."

    The INTP perspective is going to be very different--I think we tend to look at society as this hugely complicated system that begs to be studied and re-molded into a more logical version of itself. Not that that's going to happen any time soon, so discouragement sets in and our natural response is to withdraw to a safe distance to collect more information. It's not about resisting the system because it's "the system;" it's a combination of indifference to convention and authority with a desire for logical coherence that society can't provide. Ideas like "It's just how we do things," and "you're not in charge, so stop asking questions" are going to be resisted tooth and nail, although the conflict often stays internal. But since the conflict comes from the dominant Ti-Ne combination, (or Ti-Se for ISTP's, which is very similar) doing anything that requires you to ignore your predominant thinking functions is difficult and unpleasant.

    Personally, the whole "work for money and live your life on the weekends" thing is just impossible. I sit there at work and go "why am I doing this? I could really give a fuck whether or not this yuppie bitch gets the right number of shots in her espresso. Why is a full third of the hours in my day, including sleep, devoted to something that doesn't interest me?" And the answer, of course, is "well, no one's going to pay you to analyze the implicit proto-fascist dynamics of American Evangelical political ideology," so basically my life is being stolen from me.

    Not purchased, you understand. Purchased would be if I made enough money working retail, food service, or selling insurance to knock off after 5 years of it and pursue what I actually want to do with my life. The fact that I'm charged for the privilege of occupying space, which necessitates wage labor, means that I can't expect any real freedom until I'm too old to contribute to the whole bullshit mess anymore and they put me out to pasture, assuming, of course, I've been a good and faithful enough dog over the years to have socked away enough money to continue feeding myself, occupying space, and of course getting medical care for a body that will be decrepit by that point. So, basically once I've got the time to do what I want, I'll be too old to do much more than take a few trips and learn to play golf.

    And it's all because society is structured to emphasize priorities that I don't share. It rewards people for spending their time, talent, and energy crafting elaborate setpieces to persuade others to drink one particular brand of lemon-lime soda. Or to come up with new ways to stitch fabric together so as to convince people to spend thousands of dollars on a fucking bag to carry their shit around in. Or to make Ben Affleck movies.

    But you just want to observe things and try to understand them better? No money in that, freak. That'll be $1000 for the next thirty days of having somewhere to sleep. Best get your ass to Wal-Mart and fill out an application.

  5. #15
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    and the Ni thing suggests to them it's all about interpretation, so someone somewhere is spinning things to their advantage.
    So, here the Ni is slave to Se.

    Se does not understand how things work, and just pithces in to reaffirm the Ti's notion of being opressed.

    Ni thinks of abstract ideas on how to frame the idea of the ISTP being opressed.

    Yet with the INTP, the Ne is strong enough to see possibilities for its own right, and therefore liberate itself from the tyranny of Ti. Thus, Ne for the INTP does not cater to the notion of being opressed whilst Se for the ISTP does.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schizm View Post
    I just now realized, at the age of 24, that my desire to rebel against the system caused me to miss a lot of opportunity. Several opportunities for development were sabotaged. Is this a common realization for INTP's(or INTJ's?) approaching their middle 20's?
    Keep things as they are, you wont find anything more important than protecting the integrity of your inner life. Just make sure you stay balanced though by cultivating your Ne. That way you will be able to find yourself enough opportunities to support your Ti inner goals. Ne will give you a good grasp over the external situation as well as be able to interact with it. This is the skill that our ENPs are most renowned for, you'd be able to do this well too, should you get a good grasp of that function. You'll easily be able to manuever around the system in a way that your integrity would not be compromised.

    Those opportunities truly would be meaningless if you did not have an end to meet them with. For this reason it is always more important to take care of your Ti, before your Ne, or your inner needs before your outer.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  7. #17
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Mexico View Post
    The INTP perspective is going to be very different--I think we tend to look at society as this hugely complicated system that begs to be studied and re-molded into a more logical version of itself. Not that that's going to happen any time soon, so discouragement sets in and our natural response is to withdraw to a safe distance to collect more information. It's not about resisting the system because it's "the system;" it's a combination of indifference to convention and authority with a desire for logical coherence that society can't provide. Ideas like "It's just how we do things," and "you're not in charge, so stop asking questions" are going to be resisted tooth and nail, although the conflict often stays internal. But since the conflict comes from the dominant Ti-Ne combination, (or Ti-Se for ISTP's, which is very similar) doing anything that requires you to ignore your predominant thinking functions is difficult and unpleasant.
    I guess I just have a different orientation to it. I can definitely see a lot of problems in society, it's just that I approach everything from the perspective of "given what choices I have, what is best for me?" It isn't that I think society is right or fair, but that participating in it is best/easiest for me. Basically, even though I know that I'm probably contributing to something that isn't very good in principle, I ultimately seem to decide in favor of what's best for me (especially when I feel pressured), rather than what's best in general.
    Personally, the whole "work for money and live your life on the weekends" thing is just impossible. I sit there at work and go "why am I doing this? I could really give a fuck whether or not this yuppie bitch gets the right number of shots in her espresso. Why is a full third of the hours in my day, including sleep, devoted to something that doesn't interest me?" And the answer, of course, is "well, no one's going to pay you to analyze the implicit proto-fascist dynamics of American Evangelical political ideology," so basically my life is being stolen from me.
    I justify it with the Social Contract. You're giving up a part of your time/energy to society's machine in exchange for the advantages of participating in society. If people didn't have to put in a certain amount of work to survive/get money, society wouldn't work because no one would have any inclination to do anything but play. Does that make sense?
    Not purchased, you understand. Purchased would be if I made enough money working retail, food service, or selling insurance to knock off after 5 years of it and pursue what I actually want to do with my life. The fact that I'm charged for the privilege of occupying space, which necessitates wage labor, means that I can't expect any real freedom until I'm too old to contribute to the whole bullshit mess anymore and they put me out to pasture, assuming, of course, I've been a good and faithful enough dog over the years to have socked away enough money to continue feeding myself, occupying space, and of course getting medical care for a body that will be decrepit by that point. So, basically once I've got the time to do what I want, I'll be too old to do much more than take a few trips and learn to play golf.

    And it's all because society is structured to emphasize priorities that I don't share. It rewards people for spending their time, talent, and energy crafting elaborate setpieces to persuade others to drink one particular brand of lemon-lime soda. Or to come up with new ways to stitch fabric together so as to convince people to spend thousands of dollars on a fucking bag to carry their shit around in. Or to make Ben Affleck movies.

    But you just want to observe things and try to understand them better? No money in that, freak. That'll be $1000 for the next thirty days of having somewhere to sleep. Best get your ass to Wal-Mart and fill out an application.
    Pardon the question, but why are you working in dead-end jobs like that? You should be trying to come up with something that can make money. Write a computer program, invent something, write a book, etc. Why can't you at least get some kind of "white collar" job that offers more opportunities, stability, and probably even pays more than the "service" jobs you've been describing? Those are mostly for uneducated people with no potential.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Yet with the INTP, the Ne is strong enough to see possibilities for its own right, and therefore liberate itself from the tyranny of Ti. Thus, Ne for the INTP does not cater to the notion of being opressed whilst Se for the ISTP does.
    So what is the flaw of Ne and what notions does it cater to?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  9. #19
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    So what is the flaw of Ne and what notions does it cater to?
    My guess would be that it tends to neglect matters such as personal health, comfort, and security, seeing them as only a few of several variables to be considered, and tends not to give them their due weight. What do you think?

  10. #20
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    So what is the flaw of Ne and what notions does it cater to?
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

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