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Thread: INTJ and ENTJ

  1. #31
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdielK View Post
    Huh? Not making connect - its late here, had a bad week and tired so slow. LOL
    yeh it wasn't directed at your post, but the one above

    FWIW though I don't think you should "end it", that sounds like self-sabotage. Fromw hat I understand she's not ignoring you, and you don't want to cut it off with her, so why would you do that? If she's getting distressed but still coming back for more then surely that's a good sign if anything, shows you get under her skin.

    what's the dynamic like is it mutual or are you chasing her around for conversation?
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    ^^^it's because they have a plan. INTP's can learn to do that too, it's quite a good idea. hard to get what you want without one...

    oops that was at the Risen quote above the last one.
    Well I figured as much, but I fail to see the value in such "social planning" when it comes to relationships and friendly interactions, unless the ENTJ is just constantly thinking about how to gain from the person they are interacting with (like gaining friendship or acceptance, through their manipulation of information and planning). It just seems excessive and unnecessary, especially when when you're dealing with a perceptive INT who can always see through that (but not straight through to the intentions behind it). I get put off by such behavior because I'm usually well aware of it, it seems disingenuous, and for an intuitive perceiver the incoherence is almost impossible to ignore. Plus, as an INTP, I tend to mirror back behavior, and if I'm mirroring that sort of behavior pattern I imagine communication starts to break down quickly. Perhaps other types just don't react or perceive it the same way, so the ENTJs usually have no problem with that way of interacting with people.

    And certainly one can say that all forms of social interaction are rather manipulative, but unconscious for most people. Most people just act automatically, not really thinking about how their words and actions change people, their perceptions, and behavior. These calculations are always made at a subconscious level and come through in our own behavior. I suppose the more conscious awareness you have of how you can shape the situation and people, the more it is considered "manipulation" by the standard definition.

    *End babbling*

  3. #33
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    Well I figured as much, but I fail to see the value in such "social planning" when it comes to relationships and friendly interactions, unless the ENTJ is just constantly thinking about how to gain from the person they are interacting with (like gaining friendship or acceptance, through their manipulation of information and planning). It just seems excessive and unnecessary, especially when when you're dealing with a perceptive INT who can always see through that (but not straight through to the intentions behind it). I get put off by such behavior because I'm usually well aware of it, it seems disingenuous, and for an intuitive perceiver the incoherence is almost impossible to ignore. Plus, as an INTP, I tend to mirror back behavior, and if I'm mirroring that sort of behavior pattern I imagine communication starts to break down quickly. Perhaps other types just don't react or perceive it the same way, so the ENTJs usually have no problem with that way of interacting with people.

    And certainly one can say that all forms of social interaction are rather manipulative, but unconscious for most people. Most people just act automatically, not really thinking about how their words and actions change people, their perceptions, and behavior. These calculations are always made at a subconscious level and come through in our own behavior. I suppose the more conscious awareness you have of how you can shape the situation and people, the more it is considered "manipulation" by the standard definition.

    *End babbling*
    Hmm fair point. I shouldn't try to make rules for what all people need to do, I'm not exactly "mr.relationship"

    my experience though is that there's a rational reason for behaving the way they do and it's something intp's can be quite good at if we are to choose to...it just takes us time to learn what comes naturally to some others, but when we do we can take the game to a much higher level than most types have the stomach for.

    INTJ's I think have the Fi which means that in personal relationships they are naive and vulnerable...I know it's the cliche and what the descritpions say, but it's my own personal expereince too and AdielK, who sounds like a good guy, is providing another example. i.e. he's proposing to walk away from a relationship with someone he likes, and who obviously likes him, precisely because of the fact that he's brought out her feelings and he doesn't want to cause any more distress!
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    yeh it wasn't directed at your post, but the one above

    FWIW though I don't think you should "end it", that sounds like self-sabotage. From what I understand she's not ignoring you, and you don't want to cut it off with her, so why would you do that? If she's getting distressed but still coming back for more then surely that's a good sign if anything, shows you get under her skin.

    what's the dynamic like is it mutual or are you chasing her around for conversation?
    Look we both enjoy the interaction. I don't think its that we really "into each other" for a relationship. I will admit it crosses my mind but its more the fact that for the first time I met a RL person who is passionate about MBTI like me and can follow my conversations which tend to be fast and all over the place. Normally I get pissed off if someone can't follow me or redirects my conversation - with her we change each other's train of thought but it all still makes sense and we enjoy it.

    So - yes I'll miss it but I am in a long term relationship already where there is actually something mutual on the table. My RL commitment is well aware of this friendship and is uncomfortable about it. Maybe that's why end is a blessing in disguise :-P.

    But yes I suppose there's going to be an element of what if? But life is too short for stressing too much. In fact reason I even called her this week was because my son had a near drowning and I thought - shit its bad - I upset her and she may think my "ignoring her" meant my opinion of her had changed becuase that's the question she asked when she called me afterwards to "report back". Why in heaven's name I don't know because she owed me no explanation. I always intended to clarify this. When I asked if she's worried about my opinion she voiced view that she decided other people's views are irrelevant. Hmm - wonder why she still gets so emotional about issue.


    As I said I owe her an apology clearly because I hurt her unintentionally (in my defence) but I don't think I was in the wrong and she should apologise to me quite frankly for not appreciating my action in making her aware of asshole gossiping about her.

    In any case will drop mail first thing in the morning once I have figured out what to write.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    Hmm fair point. I shouldn't try to make rules for what all people need to do, I'm not exactly "mr.relationship"

    my experience though is that there's a rational reason for behaving the way they do and it's something intp's can be quite good at if we are to choose to...it just takes us time to learn what comes naturally to some others, but when we do we can take the game to a much higher level than most types have the stomach for.
    I just prefer not to use those abilities for such extraneous situations. Only when necessary, preferably not for people I'm supposed to be friends with. I don't want to manipulate people I care for, it's like a bastardization of everything those sorts of relationships are supposed to represent: genuine mutual caring, acceptance, and enjoyment of eachother (to a degree), not contrived and constructed upon false images. I'd rather reserve that power for other interactions, such as in business. If I'm aware of anyone going too far to willfully try to manipulate my thoughts, feelings, or actions as a normal form of interaction (and not just on rare occasions for harmless goals)... it doesn't work. ENTJ = master manipulator, INTP = hidden camera in the room that reveals the truth

    INTJ's I think have the Fi which means that in personal relationships they are naive and vulnerable...I know it's the cliche and what the descritpions say, but it's my own personal expereince too and AdielK, who sounds like a good guy, is providing another example. i.e. he's proposing to walk away from a relationship with someone he likes, and who obviously likes him, precisely because of the fact that he's brought out her feelings and he doesn't want to cause any more distress!
    Both NTjs have Fi. Like I said earlier, I think ENTJs bring forth and use Fi much more often than INTJs because ENTJs have Fi as tertiary, and INTJs have it as the inferior function. This means that for both types, Fi is an immature cognitive tool. However, it means that ENTJs have a better handle on Fi than INTJs simply because they use it more than the latter type. Thus, if an INTJ for some reason brings forth their inferior Fi to deal with a situation, it'll be even worse than for an ENTJ, in all likelihood.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    ... Both NTjs have Fi. Like I said earlier, I think ENTJs bring forth and use Fi much more often than INTJs because ENTJs have Fi as tertiary, and INTJs have it as the inferior function. This means that for both types, Fi is an immature cognitive tool. However, it means that ENTJs have a better handle on Fi than INTJs simply because they use it more than the latter type. Thus, if an INTJ for some reason brings forth their inferior Fi to deal with a situation, it'll be even worse than for an ENTJ, in all likelihood.

    In Plain English Are u saying if I deal with situation ito Feeling then I will be at a disadvantage?

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    Quote Originally Posted by AdielK View Post
    In Plain English Are u saying if I deal with situation ito Feeling then I will be at a disadvantage?
    Yea, pretty much .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    Yea, pretty much .
    the logic approach didn't seem to work. Am still totally bemused by her reactions

    So if I may ask what is your advice on apologising via e-mail and then just leaving it unless she approaches me.

    it seems to me that if I simply ignore her there will definitely be an end. If I call her I risk another misunderstanding of logic vs emotion.

    So mal and then leaving issue in her court. But of course will be perceived as cowardice. Ah well there's never an easy solution.

    On her FB she did not respond to my comment "Cats have 9 lives or so they say" on her original posting that "curiosity killed the cat". Seems to me the axe swinged already

    I only owe her an apology because, I must be honest I never figured she would actually suffer emotionally - feel a bit bad about it. But not to apologise I guess would be cold of me?
    Last edited by Kambro; 12-05-2009 at 04:24 PM. Reason: Just checked FB and the posts for Oct are there but yes no reply although she told me she is too busy for FB. To be honest In

  9. #39
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    if she's still taking time on conversations with you I wouldn't say the axe has swung.

    Since I got axed by an ENTJ woman all I got was a very cold but polite hello's and goodbye's - and only when unavoidable - which she does just to not feel awkward, with no window offered to respond to anything, and maximum effort to ignore me as much as possible.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    if she's still taking time on conversations with you I wouldn't say the axe has swung.

    Since I got axed by an ENTJ woman all I got was a very cold but polite hello's and goodbye's - and only when unavoidable - which she does just to not feel awkward, with no window offered to respond to anything, and maximum effort to ignore me as much as possible.
    OK - LOL, I'll see if she responds to apology. Verbally or via e-mail. Prefer e-mail as less risk of misunderstandings but she may see it as weak. To be honest I was pissed off that she told me she wished I had not told her via an e-mail. Felt she was actually impugning on my integrity and character.

    Decision - e-mail it is but feel free to advise

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