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Thread: Ask an ENTP!

  1. #1451
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    I appreciate that a lot, actually. Ironically, it was my little banter session with @phobik about tossing him over the cliff in the NT cliff thread that spawned this thread
    No problem. You went to all the trouble of making the thread, no reason not to help you out!

    The reason I asked this is because ENTPs, and to certain extend, NTs, seem more comfortable with jabbing each other, than they are with..well, bonding and sweet gestures. They seem to enjoy the aloofness, and play with the other person. Somethign I recognize, coz I do that same Ne-dance with others, but it seems to consist of different moves than mine :P
    Well, I can say that I'm not exactly fond of the aloofness, but may nevertheless try to take what I can from it when I feel disconnected from whatever it is that is going on around me. Sometimes, this can be as a result of social anxiety, while other times, I'm simply distracted by something else, and it's taking a lot of energy to shift gears. The aloofness also protects against vulnerability, while bonding and sweet gestures demand that vulnerability. If I'm not comfortable with opening up (for all sorts of justified and unjustified reasons), the aloof jabbing is a "safe space," so to speak.

    For instance, just now in the other thread, I said Id toss ENTPs off the cliff. @phobik decided to pick up on that and play with it. And well..he seemed to ehm, appreciate it more when I didn't show him mercy, so he could use his full Fe-guilttripping bag on me.
    It was kinda fun..I do know phobes a bit, so I was able to play along, but it seems weird to me, that he would enjoy it more that I would actually play along as a callous bitch, instead of..hugging it out, as such
    Ah. Yes, this sort of thing is fun. I've come to realize, though, that it can be incredibly frustrating for the other person, because the game is how to arrange things where the other person has all the power, but you respond in such a way that he or she still cannot win. It's necessarily a win-lose scenario, unless the other person is using it to exercise their creative juices. Hugging it out shows vulnerability, once again, and can feel fake and pointless unless you're willing to let the other person in.

    it almost felt like a kind of bonding...though I aint sure how far one can take this
    It is. It's the "partner in crime" vibe that I find so alluring.


    Nice to see that. So before you would automatically wonder if they were up to no good?
    Yes, or simply assume that they had some ulterior motive that would put me at a disadvantage, or knew something I did not. That was a big part of it - the belief that knowing more than the other person put me at an advantage to that person, which made me stronger, and made me safe as a result. However, the only way I'd feel completely secure is if I had perfect knowledge, which of course is impossible. The brain is very good, on the other hand, at convincing me that I know more in one of these situations of insecurity than I actually do. So the challenge now is both to know something, and to know when I do not know something.

    So it isnt as much that the jabbing is more fun..its that ehm, you are more experienced and more comfortable with it? The switching angle thing I get, as I do that myself and I do love the irony it produces. So the combination leads to...intellectual games? So when, how and why does it become destructive sarcasm, and how do you slip there easily?
    While my childhood wasn't as rough as that of a lot of other people, it was not in the most loving, nurturing environment, either. Verbally sparring with my parents was a means of keeping control and exerting power where I had none. If my parents were chewing me out because they were mad in response to something I did or said, even though I'd be punished for it (because I was punished for pissing the folks off, not for doing anything wrong per se), they'd still have to realize that I was right when I pointed out an inconsistency in their argument, or inequity in treatment compared to my siblings. Of course, this didn't exactly work; I didn't understand yet how easy it is for people to disregard otherwise blatant reality.

    So, this sort of engagement became "normal" for me, because analyzing and deconstructing others' comments and arguments was a way I could keep on asserting my self-worth while I was otherwise feeling very anxious. Just like any other game, it was a means of honing a survival skill.

    Slipping into sarcasm is easy because in the heat of the moment, it can be difficult to pull punches, or judge how another person is going to respond to a comment I thought was otherwise innocuous. Of course, when disconnected from my emotions, I am also disconnected from a full understanding of my unconscious intent in a particular circumstance. One ugly habit I picked up from my mom was to browbeat and interrogate another person for a questionable decision when I was angry with them, but justify it both to the person and to myself by saying that I was simply trying to help. Of course I'm not trying to help, I'm trying to punish the person for making me angry.

    One big lesson I have been learning is that no one else is responsible for my emotions, even if they may be the cause of that emotional response.

  2. #1452
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    More Fe guilttripping and bantering *confused*

    ...@onemoretime : translation plz?
    A pattern emerges. What happened to your NeFi insight?
    It seems to be Fi's (dis)ability to let go reading in between the line that's fueling it.

    In summary, there isn't anything in between the banter lines.

    EDIT: oh, and it should go without saying this:
    .I do know phobes a bit, so I was able to play along
    is mutual and the key to why the exchange can take place to begin with.
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
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    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  3. #1453
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Thanks so much for this. Im still mulling it over as it is a goldmine

    No problem. You went to all the trouble of making the thread, no reason not to help you out!



    Well, I can say that I'm not exactly fond of the aloofness, but may nevertheless try to take what I can from it when I feel disconnected from whatever it is that is going on around me. Sometimes, this can be as a result of social anxiety, while other times, I'm simply distracted by something else, and it's taking a lot of energy to shift gears. The aloofness also protects against vulnerability, while bonding and sweet gestures demand that vulnerability. If I'm not comfortable with opening up (for all sorts of justified and unjustified reasons), the aloof jabbing is a "safe space," so to speak.
    So its a type of armour, while getting to know the person.


    And the jabbing is a form of fencing powerplay game, it would appear.

    It is. It's the "partner in crime" vibe that I find so alluring.
    How does one go from opponent to partner in crime? After a couple of fencing matches?


    Yes, or simply assume that they had some ulterior motive that would put me at a disadvantage, or knew something I did not. That was a big part of it - the belief that knowing more than the other person put me at an advantage to that person, which made me stronger, and made me safe as a result. However, the only way I'd feel completely secure is if I had perfect knowledge, which of course is impossible. The brain is very good, on the other hand, at convincing me that I know more in one of these situations of insecurity than I actually do. So the challenge now is both to know something, and to know when I do not know something.
    That must be an exhausting mode to live in.
    While my childhood wasn't as rough as that of a lot of other people, it was not in the most loving, nurturing environment, either. Verbally sparring with my parents was a means of keeping control and exerting power where I had none. If my parents were chewing me out because they were mad in response to something I did or said, even though I'd be punished for it (because I was punished for pissing the folks off, not for doing anything wrong per se), they'd still have to realize that I was right when I pointed out an inconsistency in their argument, or inequity in treatment compared to my siblings. Of course, this didn't exactly work; I didn't understand yet how easy it is for people to disregard otherwise blatant reality.

    So, this sort of engagement became "normal" for me, because analyzing and deconstructing others' comments and arguments was a way I could keep on asserting my self-worth while I was otherwise feeling very anxious. Just like any other game, it was a means of honing a survival skill.

    Slipping into sarcasm is easy because in the heat of the moment, it can be difficult to pull punches, or judge how another person is going to respond to a comment I thought was otherwise innocuous. Of course, when disconnected from my emotions, I am also disconnected from a full understanding of my unconscious intent in a particular circumstance. One ugly habit I picked up from my mom was to browbeat and interrogate another person for a questionable decision when I was angry with them, but justify it both to the person and to myself by saying that I was simply trying to help. Of course I'm not trying to help, I'm trying to punish the person for making me angry.

    One big lesson I have been learning is that no one else is responsible for my emotions, even if they may be the cause of that emotional response.
    Sounds very..survival-oriented. Struggle for power. And cold. I can see why you would need to protect your identity in that situation that way.

    Is there a way to get an ENTP to understand that he isnt helping but in fact being..cruel and making him stop? Or is it better to just weather the storm and talk to them later?
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  4. #1454
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    Looks like ENTP is still going off the cliff!

  5. #1455
    ✿ڿڰۣஇღ♥ wut ♥ღஇڿڰۣ✿ digesthisickness's Avatar
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    I like to make "zoooom" sounds when I do it.
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  6. #1456
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Is there a way to get an ENTP to understand that he isnt helping but in fact being..cruel and making him stop? Or is it better to just weather the storm and talk to them later?
    Just being as forthcoming and clear as you just did should suffice to alert Fe. Younger/immature ppl might be more reluctant to cave in due to pride. If it proves to be the case, just cut your losses and look after yourself, eventually they may come around, or learn from it.
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  7. #1457
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phobik View Post
    A pattern emerges. What happened to your NeFi insight?
    It seems to be Fi's (dis)ability to let go reading in between the line that's fueling it.

    In summary, there isn't anything in between the banter lines.

    EDIT: oh, and it should go without saying this:

    is mutual and the key to why the exchange can take place to begin with.
    Phobes. I have suspended my NeFi 'insight'. ive always been the first to admit that entps baffle me. I have been nothing but openminded, curious and humble in this thread. What more do you want from me?

    What i did was describe the way I perceived your response and instead of interpreting it, asking for the goddamn translation so I wouldnt jump to conclusions.

    As much as I enjoyed our little banter session, it still mystified me and I wanted to find out what caused it to happen, instead of backfire....much like my conversations with you in this thread are.Id like it to be not a fluke but actually an experience I can learn from. So please. Give me some space to figure this out. I dont do well with the tough love approach you are using atm
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  8. #1458
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    Looks like ENTP is still going off the cliff!
    For now

    Quote Originally Posted by phobik View Post
    Just being as forthcoming and clear as you just did should suffice to alert Fe. Younger/immature ppl might be more reluctant to cave in due to pride. If it proves to be the case, just cut your losses and look after yourself, eventually they may come around, or learn from it.
    This otoh is very helpful, thank you

    Can you specify which part exactly you meant with 'as you just did' ?
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  9. #1459
    ✿ڿڰۣஇღ♥ wut ♥ღஇڿڰۣ✿ digesthisickness's Avatar
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    This is like watching a horror movie. "Get out of the house! WHY ARE YOU GOING BACK UPSTAIRS? The front door is RIGHT THERE!"
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  10. #1460
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    For now



    This otoh is very helpful, thank you

    Can you specify which part exactly you meant with 'as you just did' ?
    Like you did in the line I quoted, after adapting the grammar ofc.
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

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