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  1. #41
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    @state:
    I am not quite sure what you mean. I am a strong 7 with an 8 wing, not a strong 8. The systematic thing is rare. But my tert Fe can also be systematic. I'm sure that I also use Te at times since we have access to all functions, right? I really don't know which function is doing what, but NeTiFe can cut a mo-fo down with a quickness, if I care enough to do so... which is hardly ever.

  2. #42
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    @state:
    I am not quite sure what you mean. I am a strong 7 with an 8 wing, not a strong 8. The systematic thing is rare. But my tert Fe can also be systematic. I'm sure that I also use Te at times since we have access to all functions, right? I really don't know which function is doing what, but NeTiFe can cut a mo-fo down with a quickness, if I care enough to do so... which is hardly ever.
    my take is that we have access to 4 functions, but if pressed my only justification is that this is what makes sense to me in terms of how the system works in my head. i think it maps out better.

    i agree that Fe can be used to enact a long-term plan, especially when coupled with strong Ti.

    i think i am just trying to understand the implications of a series of relationships i do not yet understand well, nor do i have access to enough quality information that pertains to them to say something intelligent.

    my first question is: why are some entps so different from other entps? it is not something i view as a solvable equation, yet it is a question that can develop thought, clarify ideas, and produce better synthesized understanding. i have a particular interest in this bc of a friend of mine who i cannot decide if she is an entp or an entj. this makes me want to refine my understanding into more specific/accurate/complex mappings.

    my current interest in understanding how function development, balance, and type dynamics work in conjunction with ego fixation and enneagram defenses is in a very early stage, so i have to put my foot in my mouth far more frequently than i would like. infantile Ni projections need a lot of revising as they mature.

    for entps, the diversity of 3w4, 4w3, 6w7, 7w6, 7w8, and 8w7 is really really high. entp is obscenely flexible in terms of its skill-set, which makes understanding the range more difficult. i want to understand how the functions could develop or balance in such a way to account for these differences. and how attention directed in different ego-places, different awarenesses and different areas of consciousness, promote different skill development and different styles.

    it is apparent that at this stage i need to think of better questions and learn more about 7s and 8s.

  3. #43
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Fine, ignore me, I know you figure it out.
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  4. #44
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    my take is that we have access to 4 functions, but if pressed my only justification is that this is what makes sense to me in terms of how the system works in my head. i think it maps out better.

    i agree that Fe can be used to enact a long-term plan, especially when coupled with strong Ti.

    i think i am just trying to understand the implications of a series of relationships i do not yet understand well, nor do i have access to enough quality information that pertains to them to say something intelligent.

    my first question is: why are some entps so different from other entps? it is not something i view as a solvable equation, yet it is a question that can develop thought, clarify ideas, and produce better synthesized understanding. i have a particular interest in this bc of a friend of mine who i cannot decide if she is an entp or an entj. this makes me want to refine my understanding into more specific/accurate/complex mappings.

    my current interest in understanding how function development, balance, and type dynamics work in conjunction with ego fixation and enneagram defenses is in a very early stage, so i have to put my foot in my mouth far more frequently than i would like. infantile Ni projections need a lot of revising as they mature.

    for entps, the diversity of 3w4, 4w3, 6w7, 7w6, 7w8, and 8w7 is really really high. entp is obscenely flexible in terms of its skill-set, which makes understanding the range more difficult. i want to understand how the functions could develop or balance in such a way to account for these differences. and how attention directed in different ego-places, different awarenesses and different areas of consciousness, promote different skill development and different styles.

    it is apparent that at this stage i need to think of better questions and learn more about 7s and 8s.
    Ok, I get what you are saying now. I think the thing is that no two people, of any type, are the same. It's nature vs nurture, for one.

    Also, the gender of the person in question. Females may fake or embrace their Fe earlier or better than men, who may never pay attention to Fe at all. This is why a lot of ENTP males - especially the younger ones - have this distinctive air of arrogance surrounding them.

    In addition, age is a factor. And just because someone prefers a function, it doesn't mean that person uses it well. Meaning, there are a lot of ENTPs that don't use Ti "properly" at all and they aren't as "smart" as they think they are.

    Also, there are is the enneagram. Now, I know nothing of ENTPs who are 8s. In fact, I never really knew they existed so I have much to learn, as well. But I know that some sevens are often mistyped as eights if their 8 wing is strong. I know that scattered 7s take on the characteristics of type 1 (perfectionist, critical) when unhealthy and are supposed to strive toward type 5 (focused) to be healthy or balanced. So depending on where 7s are in life, they could be seen a more 1ish or 5ish.

    The other ENTP type that I know of is the type 3 achiever. 3s take on the characteristics of type 9 when stressed (disengaged) and type 6 when in growth (cooperative). Type 3 ENTPs are often confused for type 8s because both enneagram types are focused and driven. But the difference is in their motivations - the 8s want power and the 3s want to be admired. Of course, this is the most basic explanation.

  5. #45
    Alexander the Terrible yenom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    i think of Te as the boss, as in-charge, as in-control, aggressive, get the fuck out of my way, etc. Se promotes larger presence, physical awareness and physicality as an attitude (air of confidence), but only when it comes to interpersonal interaction. how does 8 transmute dominant Ne to look more Se? less crazy and more focused? less patterns and more is-what-it-is objects in the perceptual field? i see entp 8 as bending Ti to be more Te, fusing on certain judgments more aggressively and fixedly, perhaps the Se explanation vs Ne of 7s is what accounts for this. a far more methodical, consistent deployment of Ne perception to achieve something more specific. i think Fe tends to drop away more with 8s, which also creates less holism overall and more direct linearity.

    No, it has nothing to do with Te. Because Te is enneagram 1.

    The reason it reflects Se is because Ne and Se both share the Extroverted Percieving attribute.
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  6. #46
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    Ok, I get what you are saying now. I think the thing is that no two people, of any type, are the same. It's nature vs nurture, for one.

    Also, the gender of the person in question. Females may fake or embrace their Fe earlier or better than men, who may never pay attention to Fe at all. This is why a lot of ENTP males - especially the younger ones - have this distinctive air of arrogance surrounding them.

    In addition, age is a factor. And just because someone prefers a function, it doesn't mean that person uses it well. Meaning, there are a lot of ENTPs that don't use Ti "properly" at all and they aren't as "smart" as they think they are.

    Also, there are is the enneagram. Now, I know nothing of ENTPs who are 8s. In fact, I never really knew they existed so I have much to learn, as well. But I know that some sevens are often mistyped as eights if their 8 wing is strong. I know that scattered 7s take on the characteristics of type 1 (perfectionist, critical) when unhealthy and are supposed to strive toward type 5 (focused) to be healthy or balanced. So depending on where 7s are in life, they could be seen a more 1ish or 5ish.

    The other ENTP type that I know of is the type 3 achiever. 3s take on the characteristics of type 9 when stressed (disengaged) and type 6 when in growth (cooperative). Type 3 ENTPs are often confused for type 8s because both enneagram types are focused and driven. But the difference is in their motivations - the 8s want power and the 3s want to be admired. Of course, this is the most basic explanation.
    i think i agree with everything you said.

    my premise is that recognizing psychological patterns and attempting to understand the complexity of differences can easily take into account developmental factors. both systems are understood as centers of intelligence, and they intersect where attention, desires, and identity merge into awareness. awareness is a product of perception, judgment, and an ego complex/construct.

    i think there are a number of basics that can be seen to influence ego development, and this affects cognitive development (altho i'm not putting one before the other- if i had to, i'd lean towards mb first). yet i think the basic template for cognitive function balance within type dynamics is pretty legit. ie as an infj 5 who felt out of order with Ni, stunted Fe, Ti, and then finally two-way Fe. theories of development that describe serious wing kick at 19 or 20ish, when the tertiary function is generally seen to assert itself as well. then elements of social existence, psychological development within social group situations (ie sports teams, classes at school, peer groups, etc) in addition to the basic family unit issues of parental relationships (identification, ambivalence, etc), birth order, dysfunctional family roles (hero, etc). role models and counterbalancing forces (ie my two all-time favorite teachers were entps).

    i'm curious as to how you see improper Ti usage? Ti, to me, is just a system building function. it is an error-checking consistency/internal coherency maker. it creates principles, long causal chains, stories, etc. it isolates independent variables and focuses on understanding the relationship between them in the most technically perfect, power over them kind of way. it stores causality in its understanding of the world (which is why i continually, as a tertiary user, stumble in routine tasks where i just don't see the causal link that would solve an immediate problem, or make a practice/process more efficient. i don't have the causal awareness that they do, nor do i have the immediate critical ability to ask myself the right question to focus myself on the exact and precise relationship, to identify the variables, etc). i just kind of hover, wander around, implicate, until i SEE something in my mind's eye.

    Quote Originally Posted by cloud View Post
    No, it has nothing to do with Te. Because Te is enneagram 1.

    The reason it reflects Se is because Ne and Se both share the Extroverted Percieving attribute.
    estj 8s?

    type dynamics is more important in enneagram-mb synthesis than direct one-to-one function assignment. you use at least two functions well, possibly with hints of a third. your wing kicks in around the time your third is coming into focus. basic strategies involve a number of factors, tho many do seem to go together particularly well and exclude others.

    i see 8 in conflict with entp, but not exclusive of it. yet 8 seems counterproductive to Ne dom, which gets jacked up by ideas, possibilities, new areas to explore. this is a classic 7 Ne, but i think it also works for hte 4w3 entp i know. Ne wants newness at all times. 8 is more focused, more goal-oriented, has a more specific control agenda, which seems so antithetical to Ne dom. i can't see where it would go, more Ti could make it more intp 5 --> entp 8ish, like a well-integrated intp 5 but with shit for short-term memory (think a well-integrated, slightly extroverted, high as shit intp 5). Ti and 5 do want control, and go from chart-the-course (introverted j, directive) to in-charge (extroverted j, directive) in 5 to 8. but it's just a little bit, it's still far more naturally responsive and less controlling (Ne is naturally informing, not directing, and intps are more behind-the-scenes unless their 5ness is exaggerated, bc Ne tempers Ti so much (whereas istp is chart-the-course first and foremost).

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