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  1. #31
    Black Magic Buzzard Kra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    kra and misty mountain rose, how do you understand yourself as 4w5 intjs? how does it work? what accounts for the intj 4? how is it different than other 4s and other intjs?
    I've always attributed it to having a pretty strong Ni-Fi dynamic, mostly because I could not reason out what else it could be.

    I took an interest in music, art, and literature in my teens, and pursued them fairly actively (in both roles of participant and spectator). Those sorts of things were always more attributed to imagination and feeling, rather than analysis. Perhaps that simply gave those aspects of my personality a more frequent vent.

    As for the relationship to other 4s and other INTJs, I'm afraid I can't give you much of an answer there. I'm not the most well-versed individual in enneagram, and I've only met one other person that I'm sure was INTJ (my calc professor). We're common on the internet, but far less common IRL.
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    Ni > Te > Ti = Fi > Ne > Si = Fe > Se

  2. #32
    Senior Member Misty_Mountain_Rose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    kra and misty mountain rose, how do you understand yourself as 4w5 intjs? how does it work? what accounts for the intj 4? how is it different than other 4s and other intjs?
    First, with your other post before the one I've quoted here, keep in mind that NO ONE fits exactly into the cookie cutter 'types' for either MBTI or Enneagram... or any other personality profiling system. That is what makes us unique. We aren't just robots, programmed with the same outcomes to the same life experiences. No matter how hard you try to fit yourself or others into these types, there will ALWAYS be something about it that 'doesn't quite fit'.

    As far as the INTJ - Enneagram 4 type, I suppose the best way to describe it is like having to constantly cover up on the outside the raging turmoil that goes on within. The INTJ part masks the feeling part pretty well because, when forced to choose on how to proceed, I'll choose logic every time unless I'm severely stressed. People see a logical, composed, level-headed person that they can depend on. They don't see the chaos underneath.

    Huge oceans of feeling exist in me, and I've been through the cycles of living and re-living painful experiences. I've always felt like an outsider and 'different'... which for the 4 becomes 'the individualist' as they begin to accept it. I've been accused of being 'Anti anything-considered-mainstream' before when I was younger. (I'm trying to be more accepting and appreciative of things that 'everyone' likes.)

    The thing that I find most interesting is the blending of the 'I'm unusual and need to be KNOWN as an unusual person' of the 4 with the Ni+Te paradigm of the INTJ. My jokes and antics can be insanely weird and witty... and I'll find myself acting like a clown as a general way of 'being' in places where I have to have a certain 'familiarity' with people, like at work. They see Jekyl and Hyde... one minute I'm all goofy and acting like a fool... the next I'm all business and telling someone how it is and why my system is better and how I KNOW I'm right...

    I organize things and categorize 'life' as an INTJ... but it gets warped and even weirder than Ni would normally make it when you mix in the insecurities of an E4 and the introspective and self-serving Fi. I can make my world a dark and gloomy place when I want to. I write poetry that makes people cry, but I don't often share it with people close to me, only strangers. I have also learned that there is a time and a place for letting it loose and 'indulging' in it.

    I feel like I know myself better than most people. I've gone to the edge of insanity trying to ask myself WHY. WHY do I act this way? WHY do I feel this way? Some of it has been hellish and life-altering... but after each revelation I've always felt that much closer to finding 'me'. My friends have told me that I 'adapt well' and that 'adaptability' is one of my best traits. A 4 doesn't really know who they are or where their place is in the world and so adapting is easy. Its similar to the 'chameleon' aspect of the INTP. The only difference is that while I'm doing all of this changing, I'm still confident that my logic and reasoning will get me what I want and so I never falter. I just gather data, make my decisions and move on in true INTJ fashion. Whatever turmoil that my decisions cause on the feeling end don't matter until I LET them matter, and then only as a kind of 'exploratory', 'observational' 'learning about the bug in the jar' kind of way. I see the feelings, I experience them very intensely... but in the end they don't DIRECT me. They're just there, and I release them into bits of fancy word play once I feel like I have a grasp on them.

    I have typical 'fear of abandonment' issues that come with the territory of a 4, but I don't SHOW it because that would be ridiculously illogical. My relationship patterns however show time and time again how I fall for the 'unavailable' person or the 'long distance', 'impossible' relationship. I suppose subconsciously I feel that if they can't truly get close to me, they can't abandon me or let me down. Understanding my childhood makes it painfully obvious WHERE this fear comes from, but it doesn't change the fact that it's there, no matter how much I try to reason it away.

    I don't know if this has helped any, but this is a short glimpse I suppose of my own experience as INTJ 4w5
    Embrace the possibilities.

  3. #33
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    i need to look into developmental factors, childhood, and family dynamic more in order to see this situation more clearly. bc it doesn't just immediately WORK in terms of function development.

    for me, my w4 kicked in when my Fe kicked in and started re-booting/waking up. i don't know how to account for e4 in an intj, if it's total Ni self-consciousness and sensitivity? how Ni could be construed into self-awareness first and foremost, and a sense of disparity and alienation from others. 4 doesn't seem particularly suited to dealing with the problem of introverted perception.

    what kind of life experiences do you think linked the two psychological layers?

  4. #34
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    I've been flip flopping recently between 4w5, 5w6 and 6w5 recently. Its all very confusing!

  5. #35
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    I act like a 5w6 but my core motivation is that of a so/sx 8w9. The main reason I dismissed the enneagram as not relevant is because of it's inability to explain why I'm a perfect mix of two types (and integration doesn't quite explain for me).

  6. #36
    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
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    FWIW, supposedly I'm an 8w9.

  7. #37
    Senior Member Misty_Mountain_Rose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    i need to look into developmental factors, childhood, and family dynamic more in order to see this situation more clearly. bc it doesn't just immediately WORK in terms of function development.

    for me, my w4 kicked in when my Fe kicked in and started re-booting/waking up. i don't know how to account for e4 in an intj, if it's total Ni self-consciousness and sensitivity? how Ni could be construed into self-awareness first and foremost, and a sense of disparity and alienation from others. 4 doesn't seem particularly suited to dealing with the problem of introverted perception.

    what kind of life experiences do you think linked the two psychological layers?
    Normally I wouldn't put it all out there because it seems like playing the violin, but here are the most likely determining factors:

    1. Divorced parents: Mom had an affair and eventually ran away with another member of her husbands family. Result was alienation from all of the huge family that I'd grown up with. (I was suddenly hated by Aunts, Uncles, Cousins and extended family that I had once deemed inseparable and who would always back each other up just for being my mothers daughter) The idealistic childhood image that I had of our family was torn to shreds and for the next 10 years I had to go to school with my cousin who was in my grade who never let any of my peers forget that I was 'different' and 'an outsider'. On the outside I learned to fein indifference.

    2. Alcoholic and abusive stepmom: The woman my father married after my Mother and he divorced was insane. I learned surface calm to deal with her rages because I learned that I could calm her by remaining calm, even if I was terrified.

    3. Eldest child syndrome: I was the eldest and was put in charge of TONS of responsibility before my time taking care of younger siblings and household chores that should have been handled by my Mom but she was too busy with her social life and working.

    4. Father who was notoriously insensitive and never there for us. We were the kids sitting on the front step waiting for a Dad to come pick us up who never came because he was out at the bar. Neither of our parents made it to many school functions, but Dad had to be dragged kicking and screaming into our graduations and didn't even stay for the whole thing. When our stepmom would be in a rage, smashing things and yelling, he would get in his truck and drive away, leaving us there with her. I've only heard him say 'I love you' once in my life, and that was when I was 18. I was so shocked by it I was too choked up to respond. I was on the phone with him, 3000 miles away in another country as an exchange student.

    Everything about my childhood was chaos and I could count on nothing and no one but myself to remain the same. Even people that I loved dearly and who I had thought loved me betrayed me or abandoned me, but I had to be strong and responsible and organized to handle the things that were thrust onto me. I had to be the voice of reason and the protector for my younger sisters. I protected them from our family, from school bullies and even each other at times. Even when my world was falling apart, I was the one who had to remain calm because the adults in my life acted like immature, assanine children. (That hasn't changed much over the years).

    My natural tendencies were as an INTJ... I was the near textbook example of bookworm, organizer, self confident yet always accidentally insulting people kind of kid. I was a high honor student, marching band geek and role model daughter. That kid was forced to deal with turmoil that she wasn't ready to handle. There was no security, no safe place. The only escape were my books and I read them constantly. The inner world was so much better than the real world family life, which sucked. All the time.

    I could give a lot more detail but those are the biggest things. You can PM me if you really want more insight.
    Embrace the possibilities.

  8. #38
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    my intj s.o. sounds very similar. she's a really feely kind of intj. our best reading for her was 6w7. thank you for sharing this with me. i will think about this as i go thru my enneagram material this weekend. if you do have any more ideas that pop up, i'd definitely be interested in hearing more via pm.

    on second thought, i still wonder why we assume e4 is the enneagram type for turmoil. e4 is inner turmoil in that it wants to understand itself. i would think e6 would have the most inner turmoil dealing with the widest range of concerns, the uncertainty and turmoil of the world around it. i think 6 can be a very feely type too. i know istj 6s and other 6 types who go thru SERIOUS depressive phases. e4s and e6s often have an immediate trust bc of their ability to recognize the inner turmoil of the other, to empathize, to be aware of internal vulnerability, etc. it makes them recognize others internal states very very well.

    intj, to me, seems far more equipped to deal with turmoil in a 6 way than a 4 way. 4 needs to bring coherency and completion to self-identity, which Te is generally the worst function for (well maybe all Je is very poor at it). Je is more of a method than a collected system of judgment. hmm, maybe i do not believe what i'm saying anymore. Fe is pretty shitty at this too, eventually it just learns to assert itself regardless of its uncertainty and inability to ever be finalized or complete or stable. tho infj 4 maybe makes more sense bc we are much better at stealing the voices and self-integrations of others around us and synthesizing them internally, we are better at hearing them than intjs are. but intjs could possibly recognize/outline the scope of the problem of the self and deal with it logically without really working out an advanced self-understanding in the process. it could at least clear away the noise and create focused objectives for self/self-development. just thinking aloud.

  9. #39
    No Cigar Litvyak's Avatar
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    I'm relatively new to Enneagram, and I relate to 5 just as much as I relate to 8.
    The 'default' type for INTJs seems to be 5, right? Did you ever meet E8 INTJs?

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Litvyak View Post
    I'm relatively new to Enneagram, and I relate to 5 just as much as I relate to 8.
    The 'default' type for INTJs seems to be 5, right? Did you ever meet E8 INTJs?
    I've always considered the 5 the natural INTP type; there is a true satisfaction in learning for the sake of learning. INTJ's probably sit on the side 4 or 6 due to the need to believe in the validity of the knowledge to learn and use it.

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