[NT] Why are INTs so... NICE?

[avolkiteshvara]

Nice..........huh?


NICE!

 

[Totenkindly]

Ooh, I'm so scared. Not!

Good. You won't try to escape, then.

Remind me never to get anywhere near an INTx with a gun... hehe.

A gun would be less painful. Usually it's just an unexpected carefully placed sniper shot right to the heart of one's ego.

Here's a fun anecdote: I was just choking back one of these shots to someone on another forum, where I am explicitly not a mod. She never STFU, and she is cluttering the forum up with her own inane questions because she's insecure and likes to hear herself talk. She creates threads asking the stupidest questions that either have no answer or that she could answer on her own, but it's pretty clear she just likes to hear herself talk and have people affirm her by replying. UGH.

I've been patient for a few months but I sense I'm pretty close to just plugging her and taking the consequences; I just do not suffer fools like that forever. What's funny is that I let her friend me on FB over the summer but kicked her out of my newsfeed a few weeks ago because I was sick of her drivel there too.

What I wonder is: Why am I being nice to her at all, when my actual feeling is one of being pissed off and rather disgusted? I guess it's because when I dig deeper, my feelings are attached to her behavior, not necessarily to her personally, if she stopped what she was doing I'd be okay with her; but I know if I'm cruel, it'll be attacking her and not her behavior. So I try to influence her behavior rather than trashing her. I don't know.

I still very much want to go back and plug her, though.
She could use a good wakeup call.
Maybe I should just write to her... but I don't feel like making the time investment. It's almost easier to ignore... except she never goes away.

Hmm... maybe they're nice to me because they fear my wrath? LOL.

The Wrath of Athenian200?
Ouch.

 

[Litvyak]

One shouldnt forget tho that rudeness can have different faces

NTPs try to be funny, NTJs go for the kill.

 

[Athenian200]

A gun would be less painful. Usually it's just an unexpected carefully placed sniper shot right to the heart of one's ego.

Here's a fun anecdote: I was just choking back one of these shots to someone on another forum, where I am explicitly not a mod. She never STFU, and she is cluttering the forum up with her own inane questions because she's insecure and likes to hear herself talk. She creates threads asking the stupidest questions that either have no answer or that she could answer on her own, but it's pretty clear she just likes to hear herself talk and have people affirm her by replying. UGH.

I've been patient for a few months but I sense I'm pretty close to just plugging her and taking the consequences; I just do not suffer fools like that forever. What's funny is that I let her friend me on FB over the summer but kicked her out of my newsfeed a few weeks ago because I was sick of her drivel there too.

What I wonder is: Why am I being nice to her at all, when my actual feeling is one of being pissed off and rather disgusted? I guess it's because when I dig deeper, my feelings are attached to her behavior, not necessarily to her personally, if she stopped what she was doing I'd be okay with her; but I know if I'm cruel, it'll be attacking her and not her behavior. So I try to influence her behavior rather than trashing her. I don't know.

I still very much want to go back and plug her, though.
She could use a good wakeup call.
Maybe I should just write to her... but I don't feel like making the time investment. It's almost easier to ignore... except she never goes away.

Hmm...

Well, I think you should ask yourself why this bothers you so much. I think it bothers you because you see what she's doing as logically irrelevent, but fail to see the emotional relevence the affirmation may have for her. She is insecure, and wants attention.

There's actually nothing inherently wrong with this... it's actually very common for insecure people to seek affirmation outside themselves, especially Extraverts. It's not necessarily unhealthy, though I can understand how so much pointless conversation would annoy an NT eventually.

So, another dimension I'd ask you to consider is... does this behavior annoy you because there's something inherently wrong with it, or because you don't personally see in merit in it within your own worldview?

If I were in your situation, I would likely have just placed the person on my ignore list and terminated my friendship with them, blocked all communication. If someone's getting on your nerves that much, and you don't value them enough to invest in explaining your position, they shouldn't be a part of your life. On the other hand, I know that can be hard to do when other people are quoting them, talking about them, etc.

Aside from that, however... that is a good illustration of the conflict an INTP could face with being nice while wanting to critique. You're aware that you can't criticize them without making it personal, because your problem with them is partially personal, though you are more concerned with the logical side of it.

Excellent anecdote.

The Wrath of Athenian200?
Ouch.

Yeah. See, in all honesty, you really shouldn't push ANYONE too far. Everyone has a dark side that can come out when you do. INTs are no worse when pushed too far than any other type.

Besides... if an INT can do that to someone's ego, what do you think an INFJ could do using their normal sensitivity and awareness to wreck/torture instead of help could do?

 

[A Schnitzel]

I usually just cut the conversation short if I don't want to talk. Much less work than being blatantly rude and it accomplishes the same thing from my perspective. Or if it's a text/internet conversation I'll probably forget to respond.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

There does seem to be a range of responses to INT based in part on how their communication style is interpreted. The more direct, rational approach can offend some people unnecessarily. They can misread intent.

The three INTs I've been closest to irl are about the three nicest, most thoughtful, and caring people I have ever encountered in the world. The same seems true for many online.

 

[Grace]

I love INTs but I must admit that when I read the title of this tread I went...

The INTs I know happen to be INTPs and they are great people who are smart and interesting, etc. But nice? I dont' know. I dont' think they're mean but nice?

 

[Totenkindly]

Well, I think you should ask yourself why this bothers you so much. I think it bothers you because you see what she's doing as logically irrelevent, but fail to see the emotional relevence the affirmation may have for her. She is insecure, and wants attention.

There's actually nothing inherently wrong with this... it's actually very common for insecure people to seek affirmation outside themselves, especially Extraverts. It's not necessarily unhealthy, though I can understand how so much pointless conversation would annoy an NT eventually.

So, another dimension I'd ask you to consider is... does this behavior annoy you because there's something inherently wrong with it, or because you don't personally see in merit in it within your own worldview?

I see it as bad for her (because she's 30 and is acting like a 15 year old, with no sign of improvement), she's in the middle of a big life change that she's going to fail at if she does not get over this sort of thing... and because she's annoying other people, not just me, with her behavior.

I'm pretty live-and-let-live outside of a community setting, but inside one, I expect people to think about how others are impacted by their behavior and regulate themselves rather than having to have other people intervene and set them straight all the time. So there, my strong sense of autonomy and taking personal responsibility is driving my feelings; she's not being autonomous at her age level, nor is she considering how others feel about her behavior, and she's forcing others to clean up her mess if they want to resolve her issue.

But no, it's not all about me.
I think it's bad for her too.
I just never signed up to be her mentor.

If I were in your situation, I would likely have just placed the person on my ignore list and terminated my friendship with them, blocked all communication. If someone's getting on your nerves that much, and you don't value them enough to invest in explaining your position, they shouldn't be a part of your life. On the other hand, I know that can be hard to do when other people are quoting them, talking about them, etc.

Whatever.
That wasn't my point in bringing it up.

Aside from that, however... that is a good illustration of the conflict an INTP could face with being nice while wanting to critique. You're aware that you can't criticize them without making it personal, because your problem with them is partially personal, though you are more concerned with the logical side of it. Excellent anecdote.

Yeah, that was more my point in bringing it up.

Yeah. See, in all honesty, you really shouldn't push ANYONE too far. Everyone has a dark side that can come out when you do. INTs are no worse when pushed too far than any other type.

Besides... if an INT can do that to someone's ego, what do you think an INFJ could do using their normal sensitivity and awareness to wreck/torture instead of help could do?

The thing is, Athenian, is that INT's usually have a natural defense/slough-off factor as part of the Detachment layer. It takes a lot to hit us in a way that will flip us out... and especially to make us momentarily lose control... and usually we'll leave before we'll let ourselves lose control around others.

I'm not sure that is the case for some other types, the buttons are far too easy to push.

 

[Xenon]

Interesting topic. And I'm not just saying that to be nice.

For me, I admit it's often a matter of being careful not to dish out what I can't take. I'm more insecure than I usually let on, and attacks on my intelligence sting more than anything else. I want people to think I'm smart and interesting and analytical and insightful, and to want to hear my ideas, but I'm often afraid they won't. Making sarcastic or rude comments to someone who says something dumb usually causes a counterattack, so I'm usually too much of a wuss to risk that.

And I know that if you want to influence someone's thinking and get them to listen to your ideas, being an asshole usually causes the opposite reaction.

The INTP profile here contains this paragraph:

A major concern for INTPs is the haunting sense of impending failure. They spend considerable time second-guessing themselves. The open-endedness (from Perceiving) conjoined with the need for competence (NT) is expressed in a sense that one's conclusion may well be met by an equally plausible alternative solution, and that, after all, one may very well have overlooked some critical bit of data. An INTP arguing a point may very well be trying to convince himself as much as his opposition. In this way INTPs are markedly different from INTJs, who are much more confident in their competence and willing to act on their convictions.

Come to think of it, if you're so sure you're more intelligent than everyone else, why do you care what stupid people think about your intelligence?

The above wasn't directed at me, but in my case a major problem has always been that I value intelligence and I like to think of myself as bright, but I also have this underlying fear that maybe I'm not as smart as I think. And maybe, if I'm not intelligent, then I'm nothing.

And I know for me I see where people are coming from and try to make allowance for their way of thinking and why they might hold to a particular thought, out of fairness.

I relate to this. Also, if I'm debating/discussing something with someone I sometimes see several possible meanings in what they're saying, and I want to either make sure I either respond to the right one or cover several possible interpretations in my response. I don't want to assume a certain meaning, turn out to be wrong and then have them correct me.

INTPs are rude inside their heads

Hells yeah. (Isn't everyone though?)

 

[Athenian200]

I love INTs but I must admit that when I read the title of this tread I went...

The INTs I know happen to be INTPs and they are great people who are smart and interesting, etc. But nice? I dont' know. I dont' think they're mean but nice?

Yeah. You see, I wanted to try messing with the assumptions. Usually we make the assumption that INTs aren't nice, but are more blunt. But I found many situations that make more sense starting with the assumption that they ARE nice.

Surprisingly, it works well, because there are logical reasons to be nice, particularly on an abstract level. And I would say they're nicer than some other types I've met, for instance some STs.

We normally tend to assume NTs are cold and blunt, while NFs are warm and nice. But in reality, there are emotional motivations to act in a cold and blunt manner, and logical motivations to behave in a nice and warm manner. So you really have to look at the unconscious tendencies and the relationship between contexts rather than the overt behavior, because the overt behavior isn't necessarily as meaningful as you'd think. Like an accent, it could just be learned.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

We normally tend to assume NTs are cold and blunt, while NFs are warm and nice. But in reality, there are emotional motivations to act in a cold and blunt manner, and logical motivations to behave in a nice and warm manner. So you really have to look at the unconscious tendencies and the relationship between contexts rather than the overt behavior, because the overt behavior isn't necessarily as meaningful as you'd think.

This is one of the best statements I've read. So true.

 

[Verfremdungseffekt]

What I wonder is: Why am I being nice to her at all, when my actual feeling is one of being pissed off and rather disgusted? I guess it's because when I dig deeper, my feelings are attached to her behavior, not necessarily to her personally, if she stopped what she was doing I'd be okay with her; but I know if I'm cruel, it'll be attacking her and not her behavior.

I keep finding myself in these situations. For a number of years I've been part of a sort of online social group, mostly people from one forum who have since drifted here and there. There's one person who got tacked onto the group a while back, whose behavior often strikes me as very unpleasant.

If she would just contain herself, I'd have no problem with her. I've no real opinion of her as a person; just of her behavior. If I do avoid her, it's more a statistical thing: what do I think the chances are that she'll behave herself today?

That same impulse -- reluctance to judge, while a person's behavior keeps eating away at me in some way -- has tied me up in several unhealthy situations. And over time it does eat away at a person, without one really noticing. That's part of the reason I left that forum where I met these people; eventually I realized what it was doing to me, to keep hanging around.

 

[poppy]

You know, it recently occurred to me that I've actually very rarely had an INTx say something rude or blunt to me. I mean, occasionally, yes, but not more often than Fs, who seem equally likely to lash out at me.

I tend to assume that they would be more willing to, but often they aren't.

What's more, it seems like while they aren't very overtly expressive, they tend to go out of their way to offer advice, information, explanations, or other kinds of help with something. Even in situations where I wouldn't have bothered or thought it wasn't really my responsibility.

In fact, much of their frustration with people seems to stem from their perception that people are "demanding too much" from them, when it's actually their own sense of obligation and helpfulness that makes them feel pressured to do all of these things.

Am I just imagining this, or am I onto something?

Awww, I think you kinda got it. Always makes me happy when someone is willing to meet me half way by understanding that my (/our) feedback (or criticism as some call it) stems from good intentions. Then again I've also learned that people expect a certain degree of empathy and acceptance, which I'm willing to offer if I like ya.

Disclaimer: If I don't particularly like a person, all criticism and feedback is done from a purely compulsive need to correct things, and has neutral rather than "nice" roots. And yes, there's a lot of truth to the "it's easier to get things done that way" shtick.

 

[C.J.Woolf]

You know, it recently occurred to me that I've actually very rarely had an INTx say something rude or blunt to me. I mean, occasionally, yes, but not more often than Fs, who seem equally likely to lash out at me.
...

Am I just imagining this, or am I onto something?

I suspect they really like you, and they are on their best behavior with you. INTP Central is an INTP-INFJ mutual admiration society.

INTPs are rude inside their heads

HA! Yes. Two of my favorite coworkers were witty assholes who could take it as well as dish it out. I could say to them what I wouldn't say to anyone else. It was a verbal free-fire zone with them.

 

[Moiety]

This is one of the best statements I've read. So true.

Ditto. And also the reason why most people irl would type me as a T and sometimes even call me cold (but that's probably due to my dry and mean-ish sense of humor ). Also why I type as enneagram type 8.

But I'd like to add that the important thing is to not always take the meaning of overt behavior at face value. That's why I'm so untrusting of Fe sometimes. Sugarcoated niceties... And also why I have no problem with arrogant and rude bastards.

 

[Spamtar]

I say we appreciate being appreciated but when it comes down to it its usually that we just simply rather not be bothered.

Most arguments, at least irl are strictly vanity. I don't know about INTJs but INTPs see what the outcome of the argument will be often before the argument has begun...most often the gains are intangible or minimal...so why bother...most arguments, especially with Fs or SJs are relatively pyrrhic.

Winning every argument/most has its downsides. People who you beat will begin to resent you, they will retaliate, directly or with passive aggression. Pragmatically avoiding the argument in the first place is most often the superior strategy to showing adverse opponent you are right, right?

If nothing else if you have to win the argument, a learned INTP will usually allow his/her opponent some degree of face saving (although deep down we are tempted to spike the ball).

 

[Athenian200]

Awww, I think you kinda got it. Always makes me happy when someone is willing to meet me half way by understanding that my (/our) feedback (or criticism as some call it) stems from good intentions. Then again I've also learned that people expect a certain degree of empathy and acceptance, which I'm willing to offer if I like ya.

Disclaimer: If I don't particularly like a person, all criticism and feedback is done from a purely compulsive need to correct things, and has neutral rather than "nice" roots. And yes, there's a lot of truth to the "it's easier to get things done that way" shtick.

Yeah, I kind of thought it was different with INTJs. They're not so good at faking it.

I think a lot of INTJs do have good intentions. I mean, they act blunt and reserved, but they're usually just very protective of their inner selves. Even if they don't, they're often internally driven by some kind of ideal or intense desire.

I suspect they really like you, are they are on their best behavior with you. INTP Central is an INTP-INFJ mutual admiration society.

Yeah, come to think of it, that's not surprising.

I sometimes am so acutely aware of how NTs feel about stupidity that I overcompensate and analyze very carefully. So it probably goes a little bit the other way as well, because I tend to adjust my interpretations (a bit like switching codepages or language encodings) based on the values of the group or the individual. I know they value logic, so I act logical... and it works, especially on INTPs.

INTJs generally seem to value integrity, curiousity, passion, and acheivement as much as pure logic, though, so it's not as easy to impress them.

 

[Virtual ghost]

To be honest being rude is often inefficient way of doing thiings and ilogical as such.
While logic is pretty much only thing we as group have.
What means that to be rude we are going against our nature. Especially since we have a problem making a social connections. What again means that loosing a friend will require alot of effort if that friend is to be replaced.


However when we are rude it is something you will not miss.
I will use myself as an example here: I am so calculated that I don't even open my mouth before I think things through. (always)


So if I am rude I am rude on purpose. What is something I do from time to time if I want to kill the communication I am not interested in. (aka chit chat)
Usually I am doing this with intention to hurt another person just so that I am sure that this person will not want to speak with me soon. (what is exacly my goal)
I know that it is insensitive but this is usually the only way to get out of certain coversations.
But sometimes I do something "bad" just for fun. (like use of sarcasm)

 

[Spamtar]

Would also add real quick, at least with me I tend to be quite a bit more reserved irl then here, to a point where one could find its kinda unhealthy. So this equations should be factored in.

Also more blunt here both for the sake of brevity and the limited consequences of standard protocol.

INTP (such as myself) can be "full of ourselves" both here and irl,
however, when, particularly when a F "pulls us into their world", the F can dominate (at least temporarily) and if done right even be greatly appreciated by the INT.

 

[Totenkindly]

Something I just mentioned in a different thread:

Even when I'm annoyed or frustrated, I might not be 100% sure I'm right.
Even 95% isn't necessarily good enough.

So I usually maintain as even a keel as I can until I'm really sure I have grounds to take strong action. I don't want to take such a strong response until I'm really really sure I will not regret it later and interpreted the other person's behavior view appropriately.

Acting spontaneously out of a strong emotion is just not something INTPs generally like to do. It conflicts with the need for intellectual coherence and not making mistakes that later will have to be corrected, which emotions are prone to lead to.