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  1. #51
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    If you can comprehend the idea that "go die in a fire" can be said endearingly, you probably won't find INTx's particularly mean.

  2. #52
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    Probably because they're rational, therefore being more emotionally balanced in their interactions with others, and less overbearing than extroverted NTs about flaunting their particular skill set.

  3. #53
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    You know, it recently occurred to me that I've actually very rarely had an INTx say something rude or blunt to me. I mean, occasionally, yes, but not more often than Fs, who seem equally likely to lash out at me.

    I tend to assume that they would be more willing to, but often they aren't.

    What's more, it seems like while they aren't very overtly expressive, they tend to go out of their way to offer advice, information, explanations, or other kinds of help with something. Even in situations where I wouldn't have bothered or thought it wasn't really my responsibility.

    In fact, much of their frustration with people seems to stem from their perception that people are "demanding too much" from them, when it's actually their own sense of obligation and helpfulness that makes them feel pressured to do all of these things.

    Am I just imagining this, or am I onto something?
    Guilt.

    The INTs are into guilt.
    The ESFs are into shame:
    The authority figure decides when and to whom to be nice.

    Guilt < Field independence.
    Shame < Field dependence.

    Shame is about what the other people think about you.
    Guilt is about what you think about yourself.

    Most people are into shame. The authority figure is outside of the house.
    Few people are into guilt. The authority figure is inside of the house.

    Niceness is inborn.

  4. #54
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    Guilt.

    The INTs are into guilt.
    The ESFs are into shame:
    The authority figure decides when and to whom to be nice.

    Guilt < Field independence.
    Shame < Field dependence.

    Shame is about what the other people think about you.
    Guilt is about what you think about yourself.

    Most people are into shame. The authority figure is outside of the house.
    Few people are into guilt. The authority figure is inside of the house.

    Niceness is inborn.
    Brr, dislike your choice of wording. :P

    I'd prefer to say it like this.

    The INTs are not into guilt, and thus do everything in their power to prevent it.
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  5. #55
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Conceptually, for INTP's, that an inferior Fe for you, coupled with a potentially weak personal ego. The ego is not tuned into what it desires (from a feelings perspective), it can only determine what it should 'rationally want'; hence, it can't stand up for itself in matters involving personal preference or desire; hence, when someone else requests something, the INTP has a lot of trouble saying 'no' outright, especially because saying 'no' might create bad will and later conflict that will impose on one's freedom even moreso. So it's easier to comply, but it's not done willingly.

    I remember so many times not wanting to do what someone wanted but feeling like I had "no rational reason" to say no, so now I had no choice... but i was resentful over it because I tried very hard not to request anything from others and I felt like they were being unfair. It was easier just to stay away from people.
    Ayee carumba! Errm I think I've just found my eureka moment for the week.

    This makes sense as to why I find Ts are more diplomatic in general than Fs. Okay so this is comparing NFs to NTs but I figure it should carry over to STs and SFs to some degree. The concept that Ts require a reason to disrupt the flow makes a whole lot of sense.

    Oh yeah and that quote.... I'd just like to put my hand up and then go and sit quietly in the corner looking guilty... must figure that one out one day...

    "No."

    "NO!"

    See I can type it... honest....

    Re Athenian200,
    I think you might find you prefer INT style responses because they are dealing more with possibilities, they're stated in a less than definite fashion so mostly it's suggestions. That's a whole lot easier to absorb and consider than a seeming instruction or crusade.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  6. #56
    . Blank's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    You know, it recently occurred to me that I've actually very rarely had an INTx say something rude or blunt to me. I mean, occasionally, yes, but not more often than Fs, who seem equally likely to lash out at me.

    I tend to assume that they would be more willing to, but often they aren't.

    What's more, it seems like while they aren't very overtly expressive, they tend to go out of their way to offer advice, information, explanations, or other kinds of help with something. Even in situations where I wouldn't have bothered or thought it wasn't really my responsibility.

    In fact, much of their frustration with people seems to stem from their perception that people are "demanding too much" from them, when it's actually their own sense of obligation and helpfulness that makes them feel pressured to do all of these things.

    Am I just imagining this, or am I onto something?
    That's about the opposite of what I am.

    I'm rude, I'm blunt, and I'm simple. I don't really like to offer help because I hate feelings of obligation, but when I do, I'm honest and helpful. I tend to be more critical and less likely to praise, but that's because I give praise when I'm actually surprised/impressed by something and critical when something needs fixing.

    I'm also mega-stubborn, and if I set my mind to not doing something, it's not going to get done. If someone wants help from me, and it's something I'm not interested in helping them in, they'll know about it for sure. :P
    Ti = 19 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Te = 16[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Ne = 16[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Fi = 15 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Si = 12 [][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Ni = 12 [][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Se = 11[][][][][][][][][][][]
    Fe = 0

    -----------------
    Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
    Man got to sit and wonder why, why, why;
    Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
    Man got to tell himself he understand

  7. #57
    Senior Member LostInNerSpace's Avatar
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    I can come up with new ideas the same way a comedian never runs out of material for jokes. It's no different. Humor and creativity are closely related. Just takes a lot of work. The more work, the better the ideas. The ideas are even better from a team of people to working together.

    What I can't figure out is if you are asking because you really want ideas is it just another silly game.

    Let's say for argument sake you really want ideas. I'm not in a position to come up with anything meaningful because I'm tied up trying to earn a living. Smart people hire people who have what they want.

    Show me a successful comedian who doesn't work hard, doesn't have a team of people, or both.

  8. #58
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    Brr, dislike your choice of wording. :P

    I'd prefer to say it like this.

    The INTs are not into guilt, and thus do everything in their power to prevent it.
    I'm proud of myself -- growing up, I indulged in both of these [guilt and shame] equally well.

    Nowadays, I let few people shame me (if any -- usually I recognize it up front and set the feelings aside if any appear), and I got over feeling guilt burdens a few years back. If you live according to your sensibilities and conscience and have a healthy self-image, then there's nothing really to be ashamed or guilty about; you do what you know you should do and need to do, and you do not do what you know you should not do or can't do, and in the meanwhile, when you're inconsistent with your self-image, you apologize to yourself and others, fix the problem, and move ahead.

    You only suffer guilt when you do things you don't believe you should do (or don't do things you think you should); and you only suffer shame when you let others determine what you should be rather than being who you are.

    This shame/guilt thing seems like a coarse Level 1 tool towards self-improvement, for those who don't easily like to take responsibility for their choices.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #59
    Feline Member kelric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Conceptually, for INTP's, that an inferior Fe for you, coupled with a potentially weak personal ego. The ego is not tuned into what it desires (from a feelings perspective), it can only determine what it should 'rationally want'; hence, it can't stand up for itself in matters involving personal preference or desire; hence, when someone else requests something, the INTP has a lot of trouble saying 'no' outright, especially because saying 'no' might create bad will and later conflict that will impose on one's freedom even moreso. So it's easier to comply, but it's not done willingly.

    I remember so many times not wanting to do what someone wanted but feeling like I had "no rational reason" to say no, so now I had no choice... but i was resentful over it because I tried very hard not to request anything from others and I felt like they were being unfair. It was easier just to stay away from people.
    This is very true for me, as well. Most of the time, I don't have a strong opinion on whatever matters may be at hand. I definitely dislike bad will and conflict, and often see that as either not worth the effort to press, or that the conflict would be worse -- if it's not something I have an objectively unfalsifiable, easily communicated reason to say no, I'll often play along. But like Jennifer says -- it's easy to get into the position of feeling like others are being unfair and taking advantage. Sometimes it is easier to simply disengage.

    I do have my buttons that can be pushed, though. Currently this takes form primarily at work -- where I *can't* disengage. In that, I'll either a) do things as I think they should be done (when I can get away with it) or b) get frustrated and upset. In interacting with others, I'll a) do just fine if I believe that I'm respected and not being taken advantage of or b) grumble, get frustrated and upset.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  10. #60
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    If you are mean, you burn bridges, which limits possibilities?

    This would bother INTJs, who see the big picture and plan a great deal (strategy).

    This would bother INTPs, who avoid closure, and prefer to keep possibilities open?

    Just an idea I'm throwing out there; I could be way off base.

    I apologize if someone said this before.
    If you are interested in language, words, linguistics, or foreign languages, check out my blog and read, post, and/or share.

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