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  1. #31
    Riva
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Not necessarily. They are theoretically more practical, but ESTJs sometimes abandon logic in favor of SJish principles (like working hard, even if that work is fruitless). ENTJs are more likely to work smart, rather than just hard.



    Yes ESTJs do abandon logic in favour of SJ principles. (I have noticed this with my super cool Si).
    And this may be very hard to believe.
    "SJs are the most distant/different types from the NTs".
    Meaning SPs and NFs have more in common to NTs than SJs have.

    Coming back to the topic.
    I did not say that ENTJs are less logical, I said ENTJs are less practical. Now being logical does not exactly mean being practical does it?

    ex -
    Logically option A would be right, but for practical reasons option B would be better.
    That is what I was trying to say.

    So did my Fe make everyone happy?

  2. #32
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    ESTJ's (in my very humble opinion which may be wrong) focus on what is.

    ENTJ's focus on what could and should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by Curzon View Post
    Exactly!!!!

    This is the reason why an ENTJ takes a bit more time to adjust to the situation than ESTJs. ESTJs are right there, right now. They take actions, while the ENTJs are busy thinking of taking future actions.

    When I hear the word "should," I start to twitch. ("Should be," is moralistic in tone.)
    Ni sees>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what WILL be, not what should be.

  3. #33
    Riva
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    When I hear the word "should," I start to twitch. ("Should be," is moralistic in tone.)
    Ni sees>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what WILL be, not what should be.
    True that.
    It is time to teach these kids a thing or two, about MBTI..

    Ni = What Will
    Si = What should
    Ne = What could
    Se = That girl is hot

    Even Bluewing/ SolitaryWalker couldn't do better than that.

  4. #34
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curzon View Post
    It is time to teach these kids a thing or two, about MBTI..

    Se = That girl is hot

    Even Bluewing/ SolitaryWalker couldn't do better than that.
    You are the Eiffel tower of knowledge.

  5. #35
    Shaman BlackCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curzon View Post
    Se = That girl is hot
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

    sCueI (primary Inquisition)

  6. #36
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    From people I know, there are a lot of similarities between the two types, but the "N" sees things on a larger (global) scale.

    The ENTJ's I know (I've met and identified a few recently) have these grand schemes (they are large and sometimes complex) that they are involved with. As examples, I know one who is growing his business very well. He wants to reach outside of his own city, outside of his own state in order to expand. Another one travels a lot and meets people that will expand his network and his own skills.

    The ESTJ's I know are very similar but on smaller scales. I'm not saying that N's are better than S's, just different. S's seem content, generally speaking, to have their job/small business right there in their hometown and surrounding area. Sure, they may like to travel to other places occasionally, but it's not necessary.

    ENTJ = the world is my oyster
    ESTJ = this city is my oyster

    I asked an ESTJ once (2 of them, now that I think about it) who is extremely good at what he does for a living (they both were actually) - but I basically suggested to them that they expand their business. I could see them having a lot of success if they expanded and had multiple jobs going at once/multiple clients and they both seemed puzzled and/or offered explanations of why it wouldn't work or why it wasn't practical to expand (i.e., if you expand, you lose control because you can't be in 2 places at once, there's risk, it's harder than people realize). The answers were very similar by these two individuals. They wanted control. They wanted to be right there where the action is and they wanted to be in control. They got results that way, so I don't blame them. But, when the idea of expansion or "getting bigger" is suggested, it's not something they want to discuss for very long. They're content to keep things small (compared to the ENTJ) and very managable.

    The ENTJ, I think, is seeking expansion - ways to get bigger.

    Another example of bigger picture/smaller picture is that I see ENTJ's being anal about big picture stuff. They don't like the way so-and-so conducts business, they not happy that they lost one of their many streams of income, they don't like the way their website represents their business, etc. I see ESTJ's being anal about smaller scale things - you didn't use that tool properly, you didn't fold your sleeping bag the right way, why is there a McDonald's bag in the trash can - I thought you were on a diet, my leftovers in the refrigerator are in a different spot - did you move them or eat some of them?" The kind of stuff that would drive an N up a wall in about 4 seconds.

    No, I didn't eat or move your food. Number 1, cuz it's not my food and that would be rude. Number 2, cuz I know you're an ESTJ and you notice everything. Nothing gets by you, so I'm not going to give you anything to gripe about (even though you'll still gripe about something). Yes, I had McDonald's cuz I felt like it. In fact, it was so good I think I'm going to go back right now and eat it again - twice as much this time. Wanna come along?! My treat! You worry about you and I'll worry about me. These antics work with ESFJ's and ISFJ's, but most N's don't have the patience to talk about these kinds things. Why is it so important to pick apart every little thing. It's brutal to listen to. Makes one want to pull one's hair out.

    /rant

  7. #37
    Senior Member InfiniteIntrigue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post

    Another example of bigger picture/smaller picture is that I see ENTJ's being anal about big picture stuff. They don't like the way so-and-so conducts business, they not happy that they lost one of their many streams of income, they don't like the way their website represents their business, etc.
    This sounds like my father so much. Which is good because I thought he was an EXTJ, but yeah, definitely ENTJ now :]
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    "Fools who wear their hearts proudly on their sleeves,
    who cannot control their emotions, who wallow in sad
    memories and allow themselves to be provoked this
    easily -- weak people, in other words -- they stand no chance."
    -Severus Snape

  8. #38
    Senior Member bighairything's Avatar
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    For anyone who has seen the HBO/BBC series Rome:

    ENTJ: Caesar
    ESTJ: Pompei

    (Also, while we're on this riff, Octavian = INTJ, Mark Anthony = ESTP)

  9. #39
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    Winston Churchill = ENTJ

  10. #40
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    In the vein of the expanded ENTJ business venture - I think as long as the person adhered to their philosophy, they would be more likely to trust hiring someone to do part of their business elsewhere. For example, my uncle runs a very successful nation-wide consulting business but feels that it only makes sense to outsource the parts that do not require his unique input. That way he can get on with making more money and expanding his business further.

    My ESTJ ex-boyfriend, on the other hand, wasn't as likely to trust others to do things competently, hated anything being up in the air or uncertain, wanted to be the first to know where things were at, and was more likely to stick with a guaranteed, sure thing as far as money ventures (and still fretted a lot, at that!). The first thing he did every day when he went home was check his investments.

    I think both types have tendancies to expect the deference of others, but it seems to be expressed differently. With ESTJs I think it is taken as a challenge to them as a person if someone subordinate to them challenges something they say. People's ideas are more likely to be ignored on the basis of their rank, or their level of competency in areas that the ESTJ values. I think with ENTJs the person is more likely to be dismissed or shut down if they express ideas that don't jive with the ENTJs vision or beliefs. Other people's ideas are more likely to be ignored until they can prove them with hard data and successful results. ESTJs are more likely to implement proven ideas of others that work, while ENTJs are more likely to seek out and pursue their own ideas (which may involve a higher element of risk).

    Both types are good schmoozers when at their best, but ESTJs can tend towards being gossipy or passing along negative information in an effort to feel better about where they fit along the social ladder (or ladder of competency). I think ENTJs often act cocky, but seem to not care quite as much for how others are doing in relation to them (as long as they themselves are successful). They seem to like success for the challenge (and yes seem to enjoy other's regard), while ESTJs prefer it for the status and pecking order that it affords them.

    I may be wrong about these impressions as they are not based on a wide observational pool of people, but those are some of the differences I see.

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