[NT] NTs does sincerity/sincere kindness make you defenseless?

[tinkerbell]

Unfair or not, this is something I've noticed around people I've typed as ENTPs. Not helping is one thing, and getting away from people who don't give a positive enough vibe at that particular moment is another one.

You'd be surprised at how many people seem to type as N types by people around here. I'm beginign to get very cynical about some peoples (not nessesarily yourself) ability to differentiate, N types are c.28% of the population here, so fairly rare....

Hence here in the uk (and this was primary research)

INTJ = 1% 9 people in 1014
ENTJ = 1% 10 people in 1014
NTJ =1%

ENTP = 1% 10 people in 1014
INTP = 1% 12 people in 1014
xNTP = 2%

So you are far more likely to classify S types which are pretty common garden as N's.... It' would be a very rare day to have a lot of any of the rationalist around you, and their one of two people around here who beleive their live is simply full of them.... I can tell you for free - credibility leaves the building...

That said I'm not directing this at you, but I think the first thing people ought to do is consider if they have typed people correctly.

 

[blanclait]

I have to admit, I do become quite vulnerable.

 

[Domino]

Right after my sister got out of the hospital, she was waiting at the front of the building for my dad to bring the car around because she was too weak to walk across the parking lot. She noticed a very sad-looking older lady standing near her who was also waiting for someone to come pick her up.

Jaye smiled at her a little because she said the lady looked so forlorn and sad. The lady smiled back and said something cavalier, remarked what pretty roses Jaye had in her arms, but Jaye asked why she was there, and the lady said that her husband had cancer from the job he worked for decades and was in a coma. She was leaving to go home and sleep after along vigil and her brother-in-law was arriving to take the next bed-side shift.

Jaye, after fighting for her own life, felt so sorry and sad for that lady - she wanted to hug her, but decided not to because Jaye said "I needed a bath" - but she gave the lady her roses. The lady looked astonished, then started to cry a little. Jaye found out that the lady's husband was in the hospital room occupied by me only a week before.

"We'll pray for you," Jaye said. "We'll pray for you and your husband."

When she got home, she was so distressed for that lady that I suggested we send flowers to his room with a card that read "From the girl with the roses... I didn't forget."

I know what it would mean to me to have someone remember me and take my struggle seriously, take it to heart when I feel the most alone and drowning. That level of kindness obliterates me, but it brings me closer to my center again after bracing and bracing against the hard knocks.

 

[substitute]

My emo moments are not tears. I rarely cry. My ENTP friend says instead I look as though I am Atlas bearing the weight of the world on my shoulders. It is not my pain typically, but the pain I cant help but absorb from understanding the implications of the politics and poor choices and how that stress and pain will perpetuate across my entire organization. They never see my personal pain-I may have dumped that here as I write. My apologies as they may have been rude on my part.

it's those sorts of subtleties that NT's are typically rather un-hip to... what emotions we're aware of in ourselves tend to be quite unambiguous and clear; I know that for me, most negative emotion gets converted into anger before I even get anywhere near it with my conscious mind, and half the time I still don't even know it's there until someone else points it out. Yes, I'm that clueless even with my own emotions. That's one reason why I'm hesitant to 'take on' the task of helping another person with theirs. I'm likely to just make things worse.

Also, people tend to naturally use themselves as a point of reference. When I'm sad or feeling negative in any way, I absolutely DO NOT want it "acknowledged" or paid any attention to at all by anyone else, openly. I want to be left alone, for it to not be mentioned and for me to be free to work it out by myself when I'm alone, unless I specifically approach someone asking for their advice. So I guess I tend to think, if I do notice that someone's down, that I should respect their personal space and not intrude, not say anything about it unless they solicit it.

I find it difficult to tell which people want their feelings acknowledged verbally and which people want you to act natural and leave them to it.

Pink - I remember you telling that story before. It's very touching

 

[Domino]

Thank you, Subbie. I wish I could have done more for her, but Vulcan Mind Melds are strictly fiction. Sometimes I really hate myself for caring so much about people I don't even know. You see someone who looks truly gutted and you can't pretend you didn't see it.

 

[Tewt]

Unfair or not, this is something I've noticed around people I've typed as ENTPs.
Not helping is one thing, and getting away from people who don't give a positive enough vibe at that particular moment is another one.

For me, it has nothing to do with vibes, positive or negative. It has everything to do with the exact situation. I will help someone out in a heartbeat, even if they are being a negative nancy. As long as there are no questionable behaviors, I could and would help anyone.

I will not support bad behavior, no matter what happened to the person to cause it. I am objective and not so much subjective to the person, I don't even care if this was my mother lol. I will not be dragged into stupid situations in the guise of helping.

 

[tinkerbell]

I will not support bad behavior, no matter what happened to the person to cause it. I am objective and not so much subjective to the person, I don't even care if this was my mother lol. I will not be dragged into stupid situations in the guise of helping.

Can I ask NT's if you can see the upset person is the victim of their own self undoing.... would you be empathetic or helpful.... aka the last one is to actually point out that they caused the issue.

A few occations..... IRL example I experienced...
Lass gets dumped by a man who she wanted to have a friendship with but didn't want to go out with/sleep with.

I was LIVID with her, she was givign it the whole WOE is me crap, she had behaved appaulingly to him, he has been genuinely amazing to her, wanted to go out with her, treated her well etc, and she didn't fancy him one bit... and just strung him on... then got super upset when he left her too it.

I did actually point out that she had behaved appaulingly to him.

The whole victim mentality... when she was the perpetrator...

 

[Litvyak]

I will not support bad behavior

What do you consider "bad behavior"? Does antisocial behavior caused by a more or less serious problem apply?

You'd be surprised at how many people seem to type as N types by people around here. I'm beginign to get very cynical about some peoples (not nessesarily yourself) ability to differentiate, N types are c.28% of the population here, so fairly rare....

Yeah, that's quite possible, I've never been the best "typer" around here, though I think I am in more of an 'N-environment' than most people. Even if we consider that every 3 of a hundred people are ENTPs, I've already had a chance to meet a few of them (I'm thinking 4 atm). Of course I never said this is representative or anything.

ETA: dunno about the UK, I've always read ENTPs make 3% of the population.

 

[tinkerbell]

Yeah, that's quite possible, I've never been the best "typer" around here, though I think I am in more of an 'N-environment' than most people. Even if we consider that every 3 of a hundred people are ENTPs, I've already had a chance to meet a few of them (I'm thinking 4 atm). Of course I never said this is representative or anything.

I seriously wasn't meaning you specifically.... this board is N skewed and everyone really does seem to think everyone in their life is N type which simply isn't possibly true.

In the odd environment you can get a really genuine skew, my former job has 5 NT's out of 7 very senior people and the direct team had 4 directly... and this was formerly typed, no guessing there... Actually, INTP is the most common NT type.....

Ok I don't want to distract the thread - really wasn't having a go

I ran 2 Omnibus studies interviewing c.1000 people each time, both times it came up with around 1%.... so it is primary reasearch with a nat rep sample... that said it wasn't full blown profiling questionnaire, but I'm pretty confident it's not particualrly off.

 

[Oaky]

When I greet people in general I'm usually very sincere and kind. I do this as a counter measure to anyone who would do this to me. It's like a challenge to me. I'd feel I've lost against someone who is more sincere and kind to me because they would be better than me (in that sense).

Of course when my INTP friend sees me do this he says "WTF? Why do you do that? Why are you acting all 'faggy'?". He understand why I do it but I don't think he likes the idea. He is perhaps intimidated by people who show sincerity and kindness to him.

ENTJs who don't really understand the concept of sincerity and kindness would probably tell the person that they're full of shit. I've seen it happen once before.

 

[BlahBlahNounBlah]

The whole victim mentality... when she was the perpetrator...

I always find this funny. If it's a close friend, I can find some sympathy, but from anyone else it's ridiculous and I'll say so.

 

[Katsuni]

Can I ask NT's if you can see the upset person is the victim of their own self undoing.... would you be empathetic or helpful.... aka the last one is to actually point out that they caused the issue.

A few occations..... IRL example I experienced...
Lass gets dumped by a man who she wanted to have a friendship with but didn't want to go out with/sleep with.

I was LIVID with her, she was givign it the whole WOE is me crap, she had behaved appaulingly to him, he has been genuinely amazing to her, wanted to go out with her, treated her well etc, and she didn't fancy him one bit... and just strung him on... then got super upset when he left her too it.

I did actually point out that she had behaved appaulingly to him.

The whole victim mentality... when she was the perpetrator...

I would've been more blunt to be honest. I would've explained it very clearly whot was done so she didn't do that crap again. It's rude and asinine to play with people's hearts. I would have no sympathy for her at all, and would probably refuse to speak with her past that point, excepting to chastise her frequently.

As for the basic question in the original thread itself...

It depends.

If it's genuine yes it can touch me deeply. Unless I'm either in a thinking mood, in which case I probably will look at it too logically to care, or if I'm in an aggressive mood, in which case I'll refuse to accept being affected by it simply out of spite, even if such isn't deserving of such a reaction.

Such things as emotions are based entirely upon the mood I find, moreso than the context of the situation itself, or even the actual stuff that happens. How people react in general tends to be like that though; emotions are not logical, they don't really make sense alot of the time. Yeu can explain WHY they occur, but yeu can't really control them despite having that knowledge I find... or at least for me personally that's the case.

Even if I *KNOW* I'm being depressed over something that's really stupid and doesn't have any valid reason to be depressed over, it doesn't seem to help any oddly. Weird how that works, really.

 

[InfiniteIntrigue]

It can. My new roommate is a sincere person (so far) and when she was upset, I was much more inclined to help her than my old roommate. Who was incredibly fake.

 

[paperoceans]

Nope.

 

[CJ99]

Can I ask NT's if you can see the upset person is the victim of their own self undoing.... would you be empathetic or helpful.... aka the last one is to actually point out that they caused the issue.

A few occations..... IRL example I experienced...
Lass gets dumped by a man who she wanted to have a friendship with but didn't want to go out with/sleep with.

I was LIVID with her, she was givign it the whole WOE is me crap, she had behaved appaulingly to him, he has been genuinely amazing to her, wanted to go out with her, treated her well etc, and she didn't fancy him one bit... and just strung him on... then got super upset when he left her too it.

I did actually point out that she had behaved appaulingly to him.

The whole victim mentality... when she was the perpetrator...

Thats it Tink. If I sense even the slightest bit of self pity or victim mentality ect then I back off.

Maybe this is a personal thing rather than a type thing but It really annoys me when people come to me with self pity. Probably because I don't understand the concept of letting your emotions get affect you in such negative ways. It just annoys the heel out of me and really makes me angry.

Its what annoys me about my ESFJ mum and at times my INFP.

If I think you have been genuinely fucked over then I'll swear revenge for you but If I think you are doing the whole "waa how bad is my life pity me" act then I'll just walk away.

Admittedly Its not always easy to tell the difference at times. Then I just back away and shup up If I don't know.

 

[Tewt]

Can I ask NT's if you can see the upset person is the victim of their own self undoing.... would you be empathetic or helpful.... aka the last one is to actually point out that they caused the issue.

A few occations..... IRL example I experienced...
Lass gets dumped by a man who she wanted to have a friendship with but didn't want to go out with/sleep with.

I was LIVID with her, she was givign it the whole WOE is me crap, she had behaved appaulingly to him, he has been genuinely amazing to her, wanted to go out with her, treated her well etc, and she didn't fancy him one bit... and just strung him on... then got super upset when he left her too it.

I did actually point out that she had behaved appaulingly to him.

The whole victim mentality... when she was the perpetrator...

I used to be very free in pointing out when anyone (seriously, anyone) was playing a victim or perpetuating their problems with bad behavior of their own. And I thought I was being helpful at the time lol. Didn't work out so well in many cases. Now I generally limit my observations to people that I think are receptive to it and actually want to know.

 

[Tewt]

What do you consider "bad behavior"? Does antisocial behavior caused by a more or less serious problem apply?

It really depends on the exact situation. If I know someone that has had very bad things happen to them as a child, I do give some leniency because I am aware that they might not know what normal is. But even then, it really depends on all the variables and what I see as logical. If they are consistently doing irrational, unexplainable things and using their past as an excuse? Probably not going to get a lot of sympathy from me.

My brother and I didn't have the best childhood. We both have had more than a few struggles in figuring out normal interactions in day to day life. However, he uses people and when called out will blame our childhood or parents. I think he is full of shit. He will borrow money from people to avoid getting evicted and play a sob story about not making enough money or getting enough hours at work --- then next week he will have a new $500 ipod. He uses our childhood as an excuse every single time he is called out on something, I refuse to "help" him anymore.

 

[Kra]

Sincere kindness does not render me defenseless. But it will, nonetheless, make progress in getting somewhat closer to me.

 

[CJ99]

sinsere kindness scares me because it doesn't make sense!

If some one is kind as a way of getting a favour I can understand it but just because they want to!!!!!

 

[Eruca]

Right after my sister got out of the hospital, she was waiting at the front of the building for my dad to bring the car around because she was too weak to walk across the parking lot. She noticed a very sad-looking older lady standing near her who was also waiting for someone to come pick her up.

Jaye smiled at her a little because she said the lady looked so forlorn and sad. The lady smiled back and said something cavalier, remarked what pretty roses Jaye had in her arms, but Jaye asked why she was there, and the lady said that her husband had cancer from the job he worked for decades and was in a coma. She was leaving to go home and sleep after along vigil and her brother-in-law was arriving to take the next bed-side shift.

Jaye, after fighting for her own life, felt so sorry and sad for that lady - she wanted to hug her, but decided not to because Jaye said "I needed a bath" - but she gave the lady her roses. The lady looked astonished, then started to cry a little. Jaye found out that the lady's husband was in the hospital room occupied by me only a week before.

"We'll pray for you," Jaye said. "We'll pray for you and your husband."

When she got home, she was so distressed for that lady that I suggested we send flowers to his room with a card that read "From the girl with the roses... I didn't forget."

I know what it would mean to me to have someone remember me and take my struggle seriously, take it to heart when I feel the most alone and drowning. That level of kindness obliterates me, but it brings me closer to my center again after bracing and bracing against the hard knocks.

Must...not recognise...emotional...reaction... :steam: