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  1. #31
    man-made neptunesnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlahBlahNounBlah View Post
    Your posts contain insinuations, while you simultaneously admit that you don't actually understand, and I find it unnerving. I feel like you're trying to manipulate opinion with nearly every post you write. I'm sorry if that's not what you're doing but this is how it seems to me. And that makes me uncomfortable.

    If there is something about the person's behavior that makes me suspicious, I will not.
    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    I agree both to both your points

    If people are genuinely in trouble, I'll go a long long way out my way to be supportive/helpful etc.
    No, I've noticed this with ENTPs. Whenever I've talked to them about a problem or concern of mine, there was certainly no ulterior motive, so no need to feel suspicious and shut me out. To be honest, they piss me off (with ESTPs, too) when they do that. We're close friends! Why wouldn't you (general "you") take my word for whatever I have a problem with?

    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    it does impress me, but things that are supposed to look like it don't. Things like "if there's anything I can do, let me know" - that doesn't impress me at all. Putting someone in a position where they have to ask, without knowing what your parameters or limitations are? If you can't be bothered to observe their situation and think of something specific to offer - if that's too much effort for you, then you're not as thoughtful as you're trying to look.

    I've never taken up an offer like that, and I've never made one.
    That's kinda difficult to do, too.
    Whenever I've offered help without asking where I'd be of use, I ultimately got in the way instead of being any help.

  2. #32
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Litvyak View Post
    Unfair or not, this is something I've noticed around people I've typed as ENTPs.
    Not helping is one thing, and getting away from people who don't give a positive enough vibe at that particular moment is another one.
    By "helping" I include "being the only one who doesn't cough awkwardly and make an excuse to leave the moment you mention that you're not feeling A-OK".

    One reason I might feel an impulse to leave the room when someone's crying, say, is that, Fe being my tertiary, it does tug at me when someone's sad and it does make me want to be there, but I'm quite aware that it's not developed enough to really live up to its own promptings when put into action. I say the wrong thing, or I let myself get sucked into giving more than I can afford (in a material or emotional sense, or just energy), and I only make the situation worse.

    I might feel the urge to exit the immediate scene so that I can think straight about the person's situation with a clearer head than I can manage when I'm faced with it in front of me. Then I can go back in at an opportune time and be more constructive, offer specific help and sympathize without losing my own feet.

    I have learned however to fight that impulse, because I became aware in my late 20's that it was often misread as me just not caring, and I also learned that for a lot of people, just feeling like someone cares is all the help they want.

    _______

    It's interesting though... I mean, so many people seem to expect someone to be all things to all people. And then to read your failure to try to be that, as a negative point of your personality.

    I've an ISTJ friend who's well aware that he's dreadful at dealing with crying people. He feels awkward and doesn't know what to say. He feels bad for them and wants to be of use, but doesn't know how to and worries that he'll just make things worse by saying the wrong thing. So if something like that happens, he figures the best thing he can do to help is to leave the room and allow more emotionally adept people to step in and handle the situation.

    I see that as very mature and a sign of someone who knows their limitations and how not to make things worse by trying to be something he's not. It's a very common and virtually proverbial male response to a person crying.

    I wouldn't expect someone like him to hang around on the scene, feeling awkward and possibly blurting out, from misguided sympathy, things that just make the person feel even worse, which he'd just beat himself up about later. I certainly wouldn't hold it against him that he did the wise and considerate thing and left the room, or read it as a bad thing about him that he feels awkward around people showing negative emotions. To do so would be very unfair and judgemental.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  3. #33
    No Cigar Litvyak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    It's interesting though... I mean, so many people seem to expect someone to be all things to all people. And then to read your failure to try to be that, as a negative point of your personality.
    I think these "expectations" (actually I was being curious about the possible explanations of a phenomenon) aren't unreal, and not possessing them is in fact a negative point in your personality, just like we all have our own "negative points."

    I can understand it if they try to hide their fears of not saying or doing the right things in critical moments though.

  4. #34
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlahBlahNounBlah View Post
    You choose not to be.
    It is learned. For to express Fi-an emotive response-is to be very open and let you see what I really am on the inside. For someone to shun that in avoidance, is very painful-rejection. It wouldnt matter if these folks were strangers, but they profess to be friends.

    It might be akin to you trying to share an idea and other ENTPs dismissing you without listening as your ideas were stupid.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlahBlahNounBlah View Post
    I made a post on the following, in response to another thread, but I deleted it because I didn't think it was worth mentioning at the time: Your posts contain insinuations, while you simultaneously admit that you don't actually understand, and I find it unnerving. I feel like you're trying to manipulate opinion with nearly every post you write. I'm sorry if that's not what you're doing but this is how it seems to me. And that makes me uncomfortable.

    edit-My point is: If I do not get a read on an ulterior motive (attention-seeking, manipulation, revenge, etc), I am the first person to jump into the fray. If someone seems to be sincerely hurting, I will help them without a moment's delay. But if there is something about the person's behavior that makes me suspicious, I will not.
    That is interesting. Typically I describe a set of consistent observations I see, organized into patterns via Te. The data is gathered via NeFi I suppose. This means they descriptions will be blunt, to the point, not softened, but about people patterns. However they are logical constructs, and just like you guys, I do enjoy debating them. So I enjoy pointing out inconsistencies in other's arguments.

    Problematically the ideas I like to debate and point out as inconsistent involve people. I have no doubt they may be colored by my own personal experience. I have been hurt by ENTPs and I see them hurt others. However there are many ENTPs I hold close to my heart. I would rather be blunt and honest and discuss what I observe openly-again Te at work I guess.

    However Te and Fi are nothing if not sincere, honest and straightforward. All you have to do is call me on an insinuation and I will evaluate. "Did you really mean to imply..." If I fucked up I can't, not be honest about it. Are you certain you are not reading insinuations into the situation via NeFe? Many of my EXTPs will read politics/behaviors into situations where there is none. My bf ENTP says when she thinks people are plotting against her, she knows she has to take a few days off. An Fe dom would not normally openly express emotion, so perhaps it looks "attention seeking" to other Fe users when an Fi user does so.

    However the downside of using Te? It holds me accountable to the end for my own behaviors. I can moan and bitch, however I like being told I am wrong or being given new data to refine and remodel. I also change myself everytime I uncover a new issue-ie now I am careful not to show my EXTPs my pain as I understand it results in inefficiencies and makes them uncomfortable. I also recognize my response can seem "reactionary" due to the way I phrase things and am learning to modify accordingly. Also-I have just discovered this-Te likes to "poke". It seeks a response in turn. With no response, it pokes harder trying to provoke a response. This looks "combative" but in reality is an attempt to debate/discuss and resolve the puzzle at hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    One reason I might feel an impulse to leave the room when someone's crying, say, is that, Fe being my tertiary, it does tug at me when someone's sad and it does make me want to be there, but I'm quite aware that it's not developed enough to really live up to its own promptings when put into action. I say the wrong thing, or I let myself get sucked into giving more than I can afford (in a material or emotional sense, or just energy), and I only make the situation worse.

    I might feel the urge to exit the immediate scene so that I can think straight about the person's situation with a clearer head than I can manage when I'm faced with it in front of me. Then I can go back in at an opportune time and be more constructive, offer specific help and sympathize without losing my own feet.

    I have learned however to fight that impulse, because I became aware in my late 20's that it was often misread as me just not caring, and I also learned that for a lot of people, just feeling like someone cares is all the help they want.
    This is insightful. I wonder sometimes if this is maybe what happens but they just never come back. Sort of like the email my best friend entp means to answer with a really great response but gets caught up in the next moment and forgets to get back to. Simply understanding this resolves the whole issue and allows me to modify my expectations. Also simple recognition-selfish though it may be-is what most Fi users seek. "I recognize you are in pain and I understand why...Can I help you find a logical solution?" is miraculous.

    My emo moments are not tears. I rarely cry. My ENTP friend says instead I look as though I am Atlas bearing the weight of the world on my shoulders. It is not my pain typically, but the pain I cant help but absorb from understanding the implications of the politics and poor choices and how that stress and pain will perpetuate across my entire organization. They never see my personal pain-I may have dumped that here as I write. My apologies as they may have been rude on my part.

    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    It's interesting though... I mean, so many people seem to expect someone to be all things to all people. And then to read your failure to try to be that, as a negative point of your personality.

    I've an ISTJ friend who's well aware that he's dreadful at dealing with crying people. He feels awkward and doesn't know what to say. He feels bad for them and wants to be of use, but doesn't know how to and worries that he'll just make things worse by saying the wrong thing. So if something like that happens, he figures the best thing he can do to help is to leave the room and allow more emotionally adept people to step in and handle the situation.
    I would not say failure at all. It is just an innate response that you guys may want to be aware of. It can be hurtful to Fi users, but it sounds like you have sort of self modified based upon life experiences.

    Funny, my ISTJs seek me for comfort. I will know them only a week or so and they will sit in my office tell me about the parents who just died or stress in their jobs or how many years they have been in therapy or their emo girlfriend. We bond almost instantly. It is like they are relieved to be able to share and be comforted. They are very comforting when I am unhappy in return and make me laugh. Like INTJs they are very safe and accepting and I accept them in return. I cant help but feel love for them.

  5. #35
    No Cigar Litvyak's Avatar
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    It's funny how people tend to explain their weaknesses with their type. "I've lost my wallet, but I'm not responsible, it's because of my innate inferior Se, haha" - I find this a pretty lame excuse in general.

    (It's only partially related to this case, I wanted to point this out since a long time)

  6. #36
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Litvyak View Post
    It's funny how people tend to explain their weaknesses with their type. "I've lost my wallet, but I'm not responsible, it's because of my innate inferior Se, haha" - I find this a pretty lame excuse in general.

    (It's only partially related to this case, I wanted to point this out since a long time)
    Ja ! And you cant even imagine how far some people go, like: I lost my virginity at age 15 cause I am ESTP
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  7. #37
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Defenseless, no, but willing to intentionally take down a lot of defenses, yes.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  8. #38
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Litvyak View Post
    It's funny how people tend to explain their weaknesses with their type. "I've lost my wallet, but I'm not responsible, it's because of my innate inferior Se, haha" - I find this a pretty lame excuse in general.

    (It's only partially related to this case, I wanted to point this out since a long time)
    cf. this and my response.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  9. #39
    Senior Member ceecee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    Defenseless, no, but willing to intentionally take down a lot of defenses, yes.
    This. Never totally defenseless.
    I like to rock n' roll all night and *part* of every day. I usually have errands... I can only rock from like 1-3.

  10. #40
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=neptunesnet;898305]No, I've noticed this with ENTPs. Whenever I've talked to them about a problem or concern of mine, there was certainly no ulterior motive, so no need to feel suspicious and shut me out. To be honest, they piss me off (with ESTPs, too) when they do that. We're close friends! Why wouldn't you (general "you") take my word for whatever I have a problem with?
    QUOTE]

    It is possibly they can't see what your issue is, some types are overly sensitive to the strangest things, but if you had a real proper emergency, bet they would be a million$ for you

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