[NT] INTJ vs INTP: A Guide

[Il Morto Che Parla]

I would want to see a lot of really strong evidence before jumping to any conclusion about one type suffering from more complexes than any other.

There is not even any strong evidence that these types exist, so you may be asking for too much there.

 

[En Gallop]

There is not even any strong evidence that these types exist, so you may be asking for too much there.

INFIDEL! How dare you question the existence of the sacred types?!

 

[Il Morto Che Parla]

INFIDEL! How dare you question the existence of the sacred types?!

I'll douse myself in petrol, you go get the firewood!

 

[INTP]

I would want to see a lot of really strong evidence before jumping to any conclusion about one type suffering from more complexes than any other.

Inferior Se in INTJs, not to mention suppressed/rejected tertiary Fi, can cause all kinds of issues too.

Every type can suffer from this shit, and I highly doubt anybody actually knows the varying extents (if they even are varying) to which they do.

complex isnt something that people necessarily suffer from, word complex doesent imply to anything negative or positive, but is neutral in that regard:

after watching the video, try not to go all defensive about it again and read my original post again

 

[Zarathustra]

There is not even any strong evidence that these types exist, so you may be asking for too much there.

True, but the repeated soft evidence I have seen is enough to convince me that there is at least some degree of truth to the types.

complex isnt something that people necessarily suffer from, word complex doesent imply to anything negative or positive, but is neutral in that regard:

Nor did what I say imply that people had to suffer from them (although I did consider changing my wording on that, to respect the various ways in which complexes can be experienced [but decided against]).

after watching the video, try not to go all defensive about it again and read my original post again

Thanks for including, but my original point stands.

You made a claim that certain types function based on complexes more or less than others, and you have no evidence to support this claim.

 

[Coriolis]

I think IxTPs are more defined by their complexes because they have inferior Fe, so it can come to be their shadow, an externalised trauma guiding their motions which they identify as an external agent bombarding them.

The INTJ is more liekly to be aware of their Fi, allowing them to integrate and control it.

So you attribute complexes to a person's F function, whichever it is, and wherever it falls in their functional order?

complex isnt something that people necessarily suffer from, word complex doesent imply to anything negative or positive, but is neutral in that regard:

after watching the video, try not to go all defensive about it again and read my original post again

A useful video (thanks!), but just the tip of the iceberg. There are many topics within psychology about which I know little, and this is one. Just based on the video, I can see where complexes would form a more significant part of the INTJ perspective than the INTP based on how Ni/Fi operate. The degree to which they produce bias would depend significantly on how proficient the INTJ is with using Te/Se to conduct objective analysis and fact-checking. Would INTP complexes, then, be based more on Ti/Si?

 

[Blackmail!]

I'm not trying to derail this thread, but I just feel I need to clarify that neither social awkwardness nor being an introverted NT equal Asperger's. People are perfectly capable of being socially awkward, as well as an introverted NT, without being autistic.

Sorry, it's just a pet peeve of mine.

Of course!

But on these two fora, you have lot of cases of genuine Asperger's, and interacting with them can be difficult, if not frightening sometimes. Here on typo-c, most INTx are considerably healthier (although you have a few exception: see Zara for instance), and this is likely due to a wider array of social interaction, and a genuine desire to understand others.

-----

Seriously.

One of the most obvious difference I noted when I interacted with the two types was CONTROL, and how and where this control is directed. INTP seem more interested to control themselves, to shape their ego from inside, while INTJ seem more obsessed with the desire to control or to impress others.

When they try to brag (a classic immature -and irrational- behaviour), the hellish imps of INTP-c will frequently compare their type to Einstein or Newton and discuss about it, while the insane robots of the INTJ-forum will instantly display their so-called huge scores on IQ-test. Do you see the difference?

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Of course!

But on these two fora, you have lot of cases of genuine Asperger's, and interacting with them can be difficult, if not frightening sometimes. Here on typo-c, most INTx are considerably healthier (although you have a few exception: see Zara for instance), and this is likely due to a wider array of social interaction, and a genuine desire to understand others.

-----

Seriously.

One of the most obvious difference I noted when I interacted with the two types was CONTROL, and how and where this control is directed. INTP seem more interested to control themselves, to shape their ego from inside, while INTJ seem more obsessed with the desire to control or to impress others.

When they try to brag (a classic immature -and irrational- behaviour), the hellish imps of INTP-c will frequently compare their type to Einstein or Newton and discuss about it, while the insane robots of the INTJ-forum will instantly display their so-called huge scores on IQ-test. Do you see the difference?

I think on this forum, we have more genuine discussion than on INTPc. The greater diversity of types helps here, I suppose, as does the more involved moderation (I suspect these two things are related).


The other forum is better for Ne-style humor.

So essentially, you're saying that INTPs are more about impressing themselves?

Sometimes it seems like immature INTPs make a big deal out of how little fucks they gave. They wear "apathy" like a badge of pride.

 

[RaptorWizard]

When they try to brag (a classic immature -and irrational- behaviour), the hellish imps of INTP-c will frequently compare their type to Einstein or Newton and discuss about it,

Why Isaac Newton is INTJ (and a Narcissist)

In short, he was way too much of an esoterically inclined and compulsive freak to not be an Ni dom or to not be a J. He was also much more of a 'prophet' or 'visionary' than an analyst. See Isaac Newton's occult studies for reference. INTPs as far as I know are way too rational to get lost in this kind of arcane maze of crazy cosmologies. The cause-and-effect theory developed by Newton is also based on dynamics and continual transformations, whereas Einstein's theory in constrast is all about comparing things to static frames of reference; this means that gravity is a very NiTe thing to invent, and relativity is a very TiNe thing to create.

 

[Blackmail!]

Why Isaac Newton is INTJ (and a Narcissist)

In short, he was way too much of an esoterically inclined and compulsive freak to not be an Ni dom or to not be a J. He was also much more of a 'prophet' or 'visionary' than an analyst. See Isaac Newton's occult studies for reference. INTPs as far as I know are way too rational to get lost in this kind of arcane maze of crazy cosmologies. The cause-and-effect theory developed by Newton is also based on dynamics and continual transformations, whereas Einstein's theory in constrast is all about comparing things to static frames of reference; this means that gravity is a very NiTe thing to invent, and relativity is a very TiNe thing to create.

Either way, it still doesn't make any sense at all. Typing dead people is a pointless and futile task.

Are you aware that MBTI deals first and foremost with real-life social interaction? Have you met Isaac Newton and chat with him recently?

 

[RaptorWizard]

Either way, it still doesn't make any sense at all. Typing dead people is a pointless and futile task.

Are you aware that MBTI deals first and foremost with real-life social interaction? Have you met Isaac Newton and chat with him recently?

Ah, don't spoil the fun; I was debunking a very good INTP ghost story - science and reason after all is the way to go rather than superstition and religion!

 

[En Gallop]

Why Isaac Newton is INTJ (and a Narcissist)

In short, he was way too much of an esoterically inclined and compulsive freak to not be an Ni dom or to not be a J. He was also much more of a 'prophet' or 'visionary' than an analyst. See Isaac Newton's occult studies for reference. INTPs as far as I know are way too rational to get lost in this kind of arcane maze of crazy cosmologies. The cause-and-effect theory developed by Newton is also based on dynamics and continual transformations, whereas Einstein's theory in constrast is all about comparing things to static frames of reference; this means that gravity is a very NiTe thing to invent, and relativity is a very TiNe thing to create.

Agreed. There is no way Newton was INTP. He's about as INTP as Tiger Woods is.

 

[INTP]

Nor did what I say imply that people had to suffer from them

"I would want to see a lot of really strong evidence before jumping to any conclusion about one type suffering from more complexes than any other."

 

[INTP]

A useful video (thanks!), but just the tip of the iceberg. There are many topics within psychology about which I know little, and this is one. Just based on the video, I can see where complexes would form a more significant part of the INTJ perspective than the INTP based on how Ni/Fi operate. The degree to which they produce bias would depend significantly on how proficient the INTJ is with using Te/Se to conduct objective analysis and fact-checking. Would INTP complexes, then, be based more on Ti/Si?

Its not that complexes are based on a function, its that introverted function strive to abstract in a way that goes towards an archetype and complexes are built on archetypes. also the degree to which an archetype is prevalent in a complex varies to person to person and complex to complex. you see archetype in itself isnt something you could ever directly experience, but the complexes built on the archetype gives the form for the archetype. for example if you take the anima archetype, anima isnt something that you could experience by itself, but the associations that are built on the anima create a complex on top of the archetypal idea of anima and these complexes are personal in their nature and are something that we can experience. this way for example when Ni is abstracting information about some person towards anima, its the cluster of feeling toned associations(complex) that it experiences, not the anima in its pure form(if you could even say that, because it doesent really have a form without complexes associated on it).

When it comes to INTPs, its mostly Si that gets most heavily distorted by complexes. Ti is also effected by this, but its more like if you cant subjectively see something as capable of being true or logical, then it cant be seen that way and what ever information you have in your head determines that. But also Ti is perfectly capable of abstracting information from for example Fe, in which case the contents that Fe provides are abstracted towards archetypes and complexes creates an bias on which direction the abstraction will take.

 

[Ism]

I was playing pool with these two girls that type as INTJ. We were a team of three (we all sucked) against a team of two (they didn't). It was pretty funny, the two of them tried to strategize the way to hit the ball. It was funny because strategizing doesn't matter if you can't hit the ball the right way, which we didn't. And so we lost.

 

[Il Morto Che Parla]

So you attribute complexes to a person's F function, whichever it is, and wherever it falls in their functional order?

That is a fair point, I had not really considered that INTJs could have an Se complex.

I guess as an extremely self-critical TP and someone who is pretty relaxed about others, I tend to most notice faults in others whicha re similair to my own potential weaknesses. So for me the passive aggressive sounding or "high horse" sounding TP led by an Fe which they are in denial about, is the thing I most feel disgust at seeing, because it reminds me of my own potential downfall which I am very conscious to avoid.

I guess when I see INTJ's being unhealthy, I just think "wierdo" and don't even read the post, i.e. I just write it off as something outside my realm of understanding and therefore which I am a.) uninterested and therefore b.) have no right to judge or fight against.

 

[Coriolis]

Its not that complexes are based on a function, its that introverted function strive to abstract in a way that goes towards an archetype and complexes are built on archetypes. also the degree to which an archetype is prevalent in a complex varies to person to person and complex to complex. you see archetype in itself isnt something you could ever directly experience, but the complexes built on the archetype gives the form for the archetype. for example if you take the anima archetype, anima isnt something that you could experience by itself, but the associations that are built on the anima create a complex on top of the archetypal idea of anima and these complexes are personal in their nature and are something that we can experience. this way for example when Ni is abstracting information about some person towards anima, its the cluster of feeling toned associations(complex) that it experiences, not the anima in its pure form(if you could even say that, because it doesent really have a form without complexes associated on it).

When it comes to INTPs, its mostly Si that gets most heavily distorted by complexes. Ti is also effected by this, but its more like if you cant subjectively see something as capable of being true or logical, then it cant be seen that way and what ever information you have in your head determines that. But also Ti is perfectly capable of abstracting information from for example Fe, in which case the contents that Fe provides are abstracted towards archetypes and complexes creates an bias on which direction the abstraction will take.

How do these associations get "built on the anima [or other archetype]" to form a complex? Is this a process that is ongoing throughout one's life? That would suggest that one's complexes evolve over time, perhaps shaped by experiences. Is it possible to influence them consciously? How even does one become aware of them?

I guess as an extremely self-critical TP and someone who is pretty relaxed about others, I tend to most notice faults in others whicha re similair to my own potential weaknesses. So for me the passive aggressive sounding or "high horse" sounding TP led by an Fe which they are in denial about, is the thing I most feel disgust at seeing, because it reminds me of my own potential downfall which I am very conscious to avoid.

So is a complex, then, always related to something negative, like personal faults? Do we get any benefit out of them, or can we use them to help ourselves in some way?

 

[INTP]

How do these associations get "built on the anima [or other archetype]" to form a complex? Is this a process that is ongoing throughout one's life? That would suggest that one's complexes evolve over time, perhaps shaped by experiences. Is it possible to influence them consciously? How even does one become aware of them?


So is a complex, then, always related to something negative, like personal faults? Do we get any benefit out of them, or can we use them to help ourselves in some way?

Archetypes are "Primordial, structural elements of the human psyche." and "Archetypes manifest both on a personal level, through complexes, and collectively, as characteristics of whole cultures. ".

Complexes get built based on what we experience in our lives, things get associated around a common theme, for example money. Without all the associations around money, that thing wouldnt be anything else than just a piece of metal or paper, but when growing up we start to associate things with this piece of paper they call money. For example when we first get money from our parents to buy candy, we associate that with it, or when we get our first job and see that we need to work to get money to buy stuff, we associate those things with it. But the associations arent in our consciousness all the time, but are more like feeling toned associations that we dont need to consciously review every time we think of money. Some of these associations never reach consciousness and those things might cause us problems. For example with a gambler, they are driven by some factor(most likely greed, which undoubtedly has strong associations to some archetype) in the complex and deciding to gamble is not their conscious choice. Now there might be some other person who doesent associate this archetypal idea of greed to money nearly as much, but associate something completely different to it. Or someone who gets his living off from scamming people(like some african who does some email scams to people) would have his money complex built at least partially to the trickster archetype. When it comes to anima(i just talk of it in the ideal woman sort of way, even tho there is other sides to it aswell), someone might associate for example some of their first girlfriends qualities to their anima. These qualities of the first girlfriend are not archetypal, but personal in their nature and archetypes need this sort of personal associations in order for them to express themselves in our lives.

And no complex isnt always related to something negative, its just that a complex might make us behave in negative ways(email scammer, gambler etc), but as well in positive ways(qualities of a perfect woman which you have found to be great qualities in your partner). And yes, we do get benefits from them, without complexes, you would just be someone without anything else than what your dna provided you for.

 

[Zarathustra]

"I would want to see a lot of really strong evidence before jumping to any conclusion about one type suffering from more complexes than any other."

You need to take more English classes

 

[Il Morto Che Parla]

How do these associations get "built on the anima [or other archetype]" to form a complex? Is this a process that is ongoing throughout one's life? That would suggest that one's complexes evolve over time, perhaps shaped by experiences. Is it possible to influence them consciously? How even does one become aware of them?


So is a complex, then, always related to something negative, like personal faults? Do we get any benefit out of them, or can we use them to help ourselves in some way?

1) : a group of repressed desires and memories that exerts a dominating influence upon the personality (2) : an exaggerated reaction to or preoccupation with a subject or situation c : a group of obviously related units of which the degree and nature of the relationship is imperfectly known d : the sum of factors (as symptoms) characterizing a disease or condition

Doesn't sound too good to me!