• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

[NT] INTJ vs INTP: A Guide

freeeekyyy

Cheeseburgers
Joined
Feb 13, 2010
Messages
1,384
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Based on the mindframes stuff, T is front left, S is back left, N is front right, F is back left.

I'm not sure why you think what I quoted is a misrepresentation, nor why it's contrary to common sense -- mind explaining?

The left brain is analytical. Se is anything but analytical. It just does what "seems right" at any given moment. All right-brained functions are like that. Ti is like that. Ne is like that. Ni is not like that. I think most of the sources that say "sensing and thinking are left brained, intuiting and feeling are right brained" are oversimplifying things. If both hemispheres could not think, feel, sense, and intuit, the brain would be very dysfunctional. You would not be able to sense and feel at the same time, or use intuitive thinking. There's just not enough communication between left and right to allow that.
 

Stevo

New member
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
Messages
406
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w6
You are an INTP I actually find very sensible and easy to talk with... I wonder why... :thinking:

Well, I'm studying to become a research scientist so I have developed a lot of Te principles and mindsets through my studies, especially in regards to evaluating information I see.

Maybe that's why.
 
R

ReflecTcelfeR

Guest
Sorry bud, but you need to go back to the drawing board with that one...

My reasoning behind it was essentially that all perception functions holistically look at an object; it's the judgement functions that begin to focus on the parts. By this alone I have set all four functions within the right-hemisphere, which in a way makes sense, because the functions themselves are solely based on sight.
 

Zarathustra

Let Go Of Your Team
Joined
Oct 31, 2009
Messages
8,110
Well, I'm studying to become a research scientist so I have developed a lot of Te principles and mindsets through my studies, especially in regards to evaluating information I see.

Maybe that's why.

That's much in line with uumlau's theories.

Likewise, I have developed my Ti rather well from studying philosophy.

:cheers:
 

Zarathustra

Let Go Of Your Team
Joined
Oct 31, 2009
Messages
8,110
My reasoning behind it was essentially that all perception functions holistically look at an object, it's the judgement functions that begin to focus on the parts. By this alone I have set all four functions;within the right-hemisphere, which in a way makes sense, because the functions themselves are solely based on sight.

I think a better way of looking at it would be that left brain is "objective" (T,S), while the right brain is "subjective" (N,F).
 
R

ReflecTcelfeR

Guest
'i' and 'e' determine the subjectivity of a function don't they, or this is at least one theory I'm sure.
 

freeeekyyy

Cheeseburgers
Joined
Feb 13, 2010
Messages
1,384
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
'i' and 'e' determine the subjectivity of a function don't they, or this is at least one theory I'm sure.

Yes, because they don't see the "object." They only see information that the extraverted function has passed on about the object, making them subjective.
 

Stevo

New member
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
Messages
406
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w6
That's much in line with uumlau's theories.

Likewise, I have developed my Ti rather well from studying philosophy.

:cheers:

Also I'm not a self-absorbed prick. Like some INTPs. Or at least I'd like to think so.

:cheers:
 
R

ReflecTcelfeR

Guest
INTJ vs INTP: A Guide
Last Updated: 11/1/2009

on the surface


INTPs and INTJs often share common characteristics in type descriptions: an interest in systematic thinking, forward-thinking, social awkwardness, physical clumsiness etc. This often makes it hard to really tell the difference between the two types, and can be especially confusing for newcomers to the MBTI system. Therefore I've decided to write this little guide to see if I could help people make their minds up about which type they really are (as well as convince myself that yes, I know what I'm talking about). Piss and moan below if I'm wrong. :)

in a nutshell

INTP
"I think, therefore I am."
-- Rene Decartes


INTPs are thinkers, first and foremost. They impersonally analyse their current situation instinctually, able to dissect what they perceive into its separate variables. This knack for impersonal analysis makes them natural learners and these types often pursue esoteric interests purely for the sake of discovery. INTPs often find themselves joining social groups (online or not) that are geared towards these individual pursuits, where ideas can be freely bounced around in a group discussion in order to attain a greater, mutual understanding. For the INTP, mutual and individual understanding of How Everything Works is an end unto itself.

INTJs
�I reject your reality and substitute it for my own.�
-- Adam Savage


INTJs are decisive, creative planners who love to turn bizarre ideas into plans of action. These are the left-brain thinkers who might find the directionless, armchair discussions of an INTP almost insufferable. INTJs have a much more pragmatic view of the world, one that is driven by their internal intuition. Where an INTP's ideas might come from what reality presents them moment-to-moment, an INTJs intuition is more mysterious and out of their control. This leads some practitioners to playfully stereotype INTJs as having bizaare psychic or premonitionary powers, of which they have no control of and have no recourse but to act as vessels thereof. It was likely an INTJ who first conceived of things like the wheel, or the internal combustion engine. For the INTJ, reality is dictated by premonition.

Perhaps it is better said that Ni is in fact right-brained and will take a creative stance towards what it is solving, but more biased to what they decide to actually try to solve (Te). Where as Ti will use a construct that already exists to attack different problems (Ne). Both alter to the object, but one takes an immediate turn to the left-field when solving and the other will turn to the left field when deciding what to solve.
 

coconut

New member
Joined
Jul 11, 2010
Messages
136
MBTI Type
INTJ
In a way, your quip about INTJ's creating boxes is quite correct. In every particular instance under discussion, there is a "box", a context. The way INTJs typically speak and communicate, it sounds like they're in a particular box and incapable of venturing much beyond it.

Underneath, though, the INTJ Ni is creating and swapping and moving boxes all over the place. Others won't notice this for a while, until something is said in a completely new context that couldn't possibly contain the ideas that were being discussed just a moment ago. While Ne is rather extroverted about being outside the box, pointing at that box over there and showing how one isn't inside it; Ni is introverted about it, bending mental space and time such that the old box has been sent to a conceptual elsewhere, and a new one has appeared in its place.

I'm curious . . . I've noticed that I tend to black/white things when I learn about them. Learning about parenting, for example, I might simplify to the point of "A is all bad, and B is all good," and then use that as a starting point from which to categorize different parenting practices. Only later, when I have them all categorized, do I start to take them out and re-assess with a less black and white perspective. I always start with an all or nothing attitude, and then adjust later. Or I take on labels in a serious way (labels such as, for example, radically politically liberal), then as soon as that begins to feel comfortable, I start deliberately shedding it as I re-assess and refine what I had rejected before since it didn't fit the label.

Am I creating INTJ boxes? Is that what you mean when you talk about boxes? (Or am I just weird?)
 

uumlau

Happy Dancer
Joined
Feb 9, 2010
Messages
5,517
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
953
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
I'm curious . . . I've noticed that I tend to black/white things when I learn about them. Learning about parenting, for example, I might simplify to the point of "A is all bad, and B is all good," and then use that as a starting point from which to categorize different parenting practices. Only later, when I have them all categorized, do I start to take them out and re-assess with a less black and white perspective. I always start with an all or nothing attitude, and then adjust later. Or I take on labels in a serious way (labels such as, for example, radically politically liberal), then as soon as that begins to feel comfortable, I start deliberately shedding it as I re-assess and refine what I had rejected before since it didn't fit the label.

Am I creating INTJ boxes? Is that what you mean when you talk about boxes? (Or am I just weird?)

It's close. The INTJ becomes more precise by obtaining better and better perspectives (Ni). We try to come up with the absolute best box to hold the facts as we know them. We know that a "black and white" box is going to be replaced once we have enhanced our understanding. Subsequent boxes gradually gain more colors and shades and hues, coming up with an underlying ruleset that allows one to almost immediately be able to classify things (in Te terms). For that matter, even our really good boxes tend to be upgraded in one way or another as time goes on. There are some very few boxes that are rather "solid", so solid that they feel more like Si than Ni. An example of such a "box" would be the physical law of energy conservation. While there is an outside chance of energy conservation being violated in some way or another by some unknown mechanism, it's so very unlikely that an INTJ is unlikely to entertain the possibility that energy conservation isn't real. Other boxes are intentionally provisional: we know we don't understand a topic, and we'll fill in that understanding as we get there.

The main thing is that we always rethink the rules (upgrade to better boxes). Every box we adopt is inherently limiting, but without the box, we can't really analyze things. By choosing boxes of varying types, we analyze things rather quickly, by switching between various boxes and seeing which fits best.

Indeed, if something is totally brand new, the boxes start off rather black and white, and one can see this in the posts by young INTJs, who talk as if they've figured everything out, when they really haven't. As we age, however, our initial boxes become less and less black and white. Our experiences shade our thoughts, and we have gained a great deal of practice in choosing what boxes are applicable and which are mostly nonsense. An INTJ with a very sharp Ni will choose the "correct box" from the get-go; exposure to many different ideas allows the INTJ to select the best-fitting box from a wide variety.

The benefits of the "box analogy" are twofold. It reminds us that any context is inherently limiting, and it helps us to understand why it's so hard to describe INTJ thoughts in detail. Communication requires a context, a box: if the INTJ necessarily swaps around boxes in order to understand something, how does the INTJ choose a box to explain how one's understanding?! We don't reason within one box, and thus our reasoning cannot be contained within a single box.

[Note that INFJs have a similar problem. Both INTJs and INFJs complain about being misunderstood, precisely because there is no single box with which to explain the full understanding.]

Thus, in communication, we end up selecting the box we believe to be the "best fit." As a consequence, we often sound far more rigid than we really are, underneath. I've also described it as a gem with many facets: the INTJ can show any single facet at a time, but explaining all facets at once ends up sounding like contradictory nonsense.

The INTPs have a similar dilemma, in that their logical understanding of an idea is as deep as the INTJ intuitive understanding: it's impossible to actually explain the interplay of all the ideas, ironically because the INTP's understanding is so complete. To explain any single piece of that understanding feels woefully incomplete to the INTP, because there is so much more to it. It plays out differently because their Ne is the extroverted function, and thus it seems outwardly unfocused, even though inwardly Ti is very focused.

For the INTJ, the outward Te seems to be very focused, but the inward Ni is much less focused: the Te gives the illusion to others that the INTJ has only one box, when the reality is that there are many boxes.
 

coconut

New member
Joined
Jul 11, 2010
Messages
136
MBTI Type
INTJ
Indeed, if something is totally brand new, the boxes start off rather black and white, and one can see this in the posts by young INTJs, who talk as if they've figured everything out, when they really haven't. As we age, however, our initial boxes become less and less black and white.

I'm not finding my initial boxes to be less black and white. I still have to start somewhere. The only difference I'm seeing with age/experience is in knowing that my initial box is a transitional box, so I take it less seriously.
 

IntrovertedThinker

New member
Joined
Jun 21, 2010
Messages
96
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w4
Alright, Zara, I'll grant you this: Ni probably isn't left-brained, while Ti probably isn't right-brained. However, the following still seems to ring true, in general:

Typically more “left-brained” than their perceiving counterparts, INTJs are generally articulate and well-spoken... INTPs, who are typically more right-brained than INTJs...

Now, does anyone care to attempt to theoretically explain why INTP's tend to come off more right-brained, while INTJ's tend to come off more left-brained?
 

freeeekyyy

Cheeseburgers
Joined
Feb 13, 2010
Messages
1,384
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Alright, Zara, I'll grant you this: Ni probably isn't left-brained, while Ti probably isn't right-brained. However, the following still seems to ring true, in general:



Now, does anyone care to attempt to theoretically explain why INTP's tend to come off more right-brained, while INTJ's tend to come off more left-brained?

Because zarathustra is wrong. There's nothing about intuition that restricts it to the right brain. There's nothing about thinking which restricts it to the left brain. The orientation of a function changes its methodology entirely.

I will state again: if intuition resides solely in the right brain and thinking in the left, then the two cannot be used together. From my understanding, the way the hemispheres share information is by processing it individually, and then transferring the output to the other side. During processing, there is no crosstalk. Therefore, one must come to the conclusion that both hemispheres are capable of all modes, only in their respective orientation. The right brain uses thinking just as well as the left-brain, only from its own, very different perspective. Same goes for everything else.
 

Robopop

New member
Joined
Mar 28, 2010
Messages
692
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Look, a bunny!

socuterabbitvw7.jpg

Wait a minute, are you trying to distract us INTPs?
 

redacted

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 28, 2007
Messages
4,223
There is a very significant difference between soundness and validity.

It's a distinction that every serious thinker should be aware of: Validity and Soundness

I know that, and I think it's cool to use as an analogy for Ti/Te.

I just meant that Ti - true, Te - works has the same logical content.

Would've written this on your wall thingo, but you don't have one for some reason.

Edit: now that I think about it, doesn't soundness include validity? If so, I think it's the wrong word to use. I don't think Te even cares about logical validity (whether the premises imply the conclusion), only whether or not the conclusion is true in reality.
 
R

ReflecTcelfeR

Guest
I'm going off a little of what I had said earlier about the perceiving functions being right-brained due to the fact that these are extremely visible and require abstractions (non-material thoughts). We can then say that the judging functions would be left-brained because they are in fact logical. If we say this then every type uses both right and left brain equally, but this is not completely true, you just have to take a quiz to find out that most people don't use them equally. And so you end up finding out which functions they rely on. As it would go most who are INTP and INTJ lead with Ti and Ni respectively. Ni is a right-brained function so when you analyze their thinking it will seem as if they use the right side more, though it's only an illusion to the fact that this is merely their first attempt at analyzing anything. Conversely leading with Ti will give the illusion that the left side is used more than the right, once again the illusion. This is not the only facet though because now we have the direction in which their dominant functions face. They are both introverted and so when alone these functions tend to be used more, and as it goes their second functions are extraverted. This is what most likely people will judge both types on (the extraverted function) if the types decide to show because Ne and Te are the voice speaking for the dominant function. The voice of an INTJ is rather left-brained and the voice behind Ti is rather right-brained. I think this is where some might see the INTJ as left-brained, but it is only an illusion. This is my view of the situation. It's not the dom., but the aux. that really get these two in trouble, or are the main distraction.
 

Garivande

New member
Joined
Jan 9, 2008
Messages
26
MBTI Type
INTP
I have a close INTJ friend and it's dead easy to tell us apart (I'm INTP). My office/desk/home/car etc always looks a mess (or worse). Her office etc looks so tidy and well organised it's scary (to me, at least - if her desk is empty, what is she working on???).

I'd say she's as much a thinker as I am - but in a different way. I do "real thinking" (in my view) - which is analyzing, following odd or mind-intriguing new paths, contemplating alternative views etc. While she does more "down-to-earth"-thinking. Which is planning and (mentally) organizing her environment and future. When faced with a (professional or otherwise) problem I will twist and turn it more before getting to action, while she will follow a more straight-forward mental path towards a solution.
 

IntrovertedThinker

New member
Joined
Jun 21, 2010
Messages
96
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w4
I know that, and I think it's cool to use as an analogy for Ti/Te.

I just meant that Ti - true, Te - works has the same logical content.

Would've written this on your wall thingo, but you don't have one for some reason.

Edit: now that I think about it, doesn't soundness include validity? If so, I think it's the wrong word to use. I don't think Te even cares about logical validity (whether the premises imply the conclusion), only whether or not the conclusion is true in reality.

You're right.
I would say that Ti cares about validity.
Te cares about whether or not the premises are actually grounded.
Therefore, Te doesn't truly care if the entire conclusion is truly sound, in the sense that it is both valid and that the premises are grounded. It just cares for the premises, and whether or not they are reliable.

I would say that both Ti and Te care about soundness, they just tend to focus on different aspects of soundness (Ti worrying about validity, Te worrying about the accuracy of the premises themselves).

In fact, here's a great example I can think of atm:

Rene Descartes (INTP) once said:
"I think, therefore, I am."
Friedrich Nietzsche (INTJ) had this to say in response:

There are still harmless self-observers who believe that there are "immediate certainties"; for instance, "I think," or as the superstition of Schopenhauer puts it, "I will"; as though cognition here got hold of its object purely and simply as "the thing in itself," without any falsification taking place either on the part of the subject or the object. I would repeat it, however, a hundred times, that "immediate certainty," as well as "absolute knowledge" and the "thing in itself," involve a CONTRADICTIO IN ADJECTO; we really ought to free ourselves from the misleading significance of words! The people on their part may think that cognition is knowing all about things, but the philosopher must say to himself: "When I analyze the process that is expressed in the sentence, 'I think,' I find a whole series of daring assertions, the argumentative proof of which would be difficult, perhaps impossible: for instance, that it is I who think, that there must necessarily be something that thinks, that thinking is an activity and operation on the part of a being who is thought of as a cause, that there is an 'ego,' and finally, that it is already determined what is to be designated by thinking—that I KNOW what thinking is. For if I had not already decided within myself what it is, by what standard could I determine whether that which is just happening is not perhaps 'willing' or 'feeling'? In short, the assertion 'I think,' assumes that I COMPARE my state at the present moment with other states of myself which I know, in order to determine what it is; on account of this retrospective connection with further 'knowledge,' it has, at any rate, no immediate certainty for me."—In place of the "immediate certainty" in which the people may believe in the special case, the philosopher thus finds a series of metaphysical questions presented to him, veritable conscience questions of the intellect, to wit: "Whence did I get the notion of 'thinking'? Why do I believe in cause and effect? What gives me the right to speak of an 'ego,' and even of an 'ego' as cause, and finally of an 'ego' as cause of thought?" He who ventures to answer these metaphysical questions at once by an appeal to a sort of INTUITIVE perception, like the person who says, "I think, and know that this, at least, is true, actual, and certain"—will encounter a smile and two notes of interrogation in a philosopher nowadays. "Sir," the philosopher will perhaps give him to understand, "it is improbable that you are not mistaken, but why should it be the truth?"

What do you think?

Descartes seemed more concerned with how the notion of thinking leads to some conclusion, through proper inference.
Yet, he doesn't stop to truly analyze whether or not his first premise is ultimately too presumptuous.
Nietzsche comes along and questions the accuracy of the very first premise "I think," which Descartes didn't seem too concerned with, and which he probably overlooked, intuitively feeling as though it was 'obvious' that he was a thinking being in the first place (which we cannot really know).

Thus, we see Te critiquing Ti. It looks at the premises and studies them, whereas the Ti thinker seems more concerned with the results of a few axiomatic premises.
Hence, a Ti thinker seems more prone to metaphysical play, like or not God exists. We cannot derive any entirely reliable premises for arguments for or against the idea of God, just as we cannot really derive truly reliable premises for arguments for or against the idea that we are thinking. We cannot escape our own consciousness just as we cannot escape our own solar system (atm). Therefore, a Ti thinker will make presumptions, axiomatic principles upon which to base a world view of some sort which seems reliable. A Te thinker doesn't seem to be satisfied with just taking things for granted and working out the logic. A Te thinker wants to truly render very reliable premises grounded empirically, before they actually begin to start building any world view or system (in essence, before they "work out the logic").
 
Top