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  1. #281
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    That context is basically a list of cause-effect rules: "gravity makes things fall down", "fire burns things down". My examples are clearly obvious cause-effect rules.

    What needs to be made clear here is that most people don't think like this. It isn't about intuitions and hunches, and Ni doms trusting them more. Most peoples' minds do not follow these paths. Most people don't switch out contexts in order to better understand something.
    What makes you think you know how "most people" think, given that your way of thinking is, by your own assertion, so magically different? Are you really proposing that INJs have a monopoly on understanding cause and effect? Lol. I've seen some deluded claims on this board over the years...

    According to your own examples anyone who can grasp that "fire burns things down" (i.e. anyone not suffering from serious mental retardation) has Ni.

    Ne is the context-switching function par excellence.

    Your post just reads like another INTJ fantasy of illusory superiority. An area where your type does seem to excel.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  2. #282
    ✿ڿڰۣஇღ♥ wut ♥ღஇڿڰۣ✿ digesthisickness's Avatar
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    No shit. I think I just found out that my Si is stuck in a box, can't use, or even grasp, contextual data, and is hiding its ability to memorize long lists.
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  3. #283
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    According to your own examples anyone who can grasp that "fire burns things down" (i.e. anyone not suffering from serious mental retardation) has Ni.

    Ne is the context-switching function par excellence.

    Your post just reads like another INTJ fantasy of illusory superiority. An area where your type does seem to excel.
    Quote Originally Posted by digesthisickness View Post
    No shit. I think I just found out that my Si is stuck in a box, can't use, or even grasp, contextual data, and is hiding its ability to memorize long lists.
    And this is why we often end up saying, "I dunno, just a hunch," when asked how we arrive at whatever conclusion.

    I'm limited to using analogies to explain what's going on. All it takes is one person to take something literally - or personally - and then instead of trying to explain my idea, I'm stuck trying to explain the explanation of my idea.

    There are no superpowers, here. I don't need to know exactly "how others think" to realize that how I think is very different. Of course most people understand "cause and effect". INTJs understand concrete definitions, too. INTJs think in terms of cause and effect: the world model is built from verbs, not nouns.

    A large part of what I'm trying to explain is that, as I understand it, Ni intuition isn't "just a hunch" or even "something rising from the unconscious." It's a way of looking at the world that is always there, a perspective that appears to be very uncommon. It isn't superpowers, or supersmarts. It's more like an idiot savant kind of ability, one which has probably not been all that useful for most of the history of humanity, though perhaps more useful now with the advent of computers.

    In a nutshell, I'm trying to describe Ni in a way that doesn't handwave about gut feelings or hunches or harnessing the unconscious mind, and point out fairly concrete properties that distinguish from the other functions.

    Here's another, more esoteric analogy. In higher level programming languages, there is a style of programming called "object oriented programming." Programs written in such a style are still "just programs" that get turned into machine code: the important distinction is how the code is organized. For OOP, that organization is into "objects", and objects have properties and methods - they have things and can do things. This makes it easy to organize programs, because you can just take an "object" and "use it" whether by reading its properties or calling its methods. I would analogize this to Si: there are "things" that are classified and categorized in a concrete way. One has libraries of these things to be pulled out and used as needed.

    An alternative (and much less popular) style of programming is "functional programming." In a functional programming language, "functions" are the primary entities. Even what you might think of as a variable is a "function" that takes no arguments and returns a value. Because of this, instead of building programs with objects, one builds programs with functions. One can take functions and easily build new functions from them, layering them in different ways. I would analogize functional programming with Ni.

    In general, object oriented programming is much more useful than functional programming. It's easy to share objects, and often programming objects correspond to "real" objects in the real world. (E.g., telling a printer to print a document.) Functional programming is more useful in very specific ways, such as processing data, working with mathematical equations, parallel processing (everything is immutable), and pretty much anything where what you're doing in real life is more easily mapped to a functional kind of thinking. It's this functional (cause and effect - function takes argument and delivers result) kind of thinking that I ascribe to Ni.

    Note that any truly practical functional programming style will occasionally need to employ objects (talk with interfaces to make things happen in the real world). And of course, any object oriented programming style has to have some objects with methods (functions) in order to get anything done at all. So neither style is at all ignorant of the other, but they are organized very differently, and the pieces of code fit together very differently.

    And that is how I see the differences between Si and Ni.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  4. #284
    WhoCares
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    Ni, to me is like this. You are walking around in a pitch black room you have never navigated before. You stumble over a chair, and eventually you realise it's a chair. Epiphany moment. All day I will take in and filter out extraneous bits of data from all directions. None of it will be given much thought by my conscious brain until, epiphany moment when certain bits of data make sense. Often I am the last to get something and wont get it until I walk away and do something else. And because I cannot follow how that conclusion was arrived at I now have to reverse engineer an explanation for it.

    True story - I once communicated some of these epiphanies to others. In time what I said had come true for them. Now people think I have some sort of psychic ability. I don't. Its just Ni coming up with shit out of what looks like thin air. In actual fact its an accumulation of disjointed data over a long period of time that gave rise to a pattern for predicting future results. Accuracy is hit and miss like most things, but people being what they are will focus on the accurate parts and give that significance in their mind.

  5. #285
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    And this is why we often end up saying, "I dunno, just a hunch," when asked how we arrive at whatever conclusion.
    Si isn't like OOP, it's more like procedural programming. Actually comparing cognitive functions to programming paradigms is an exercise in futility, though it's amusing that your Te reaches for such a lifeless, mechanistic explanation... Especially when talking about the intuitive functions. WhoCares gets closer.
    Jung claimed Ni paralleled some aspects of schizophrenia (as have other thinkers), a conclusion that is difficult to resist. That is not to say that Ni-doms are crazy so much as to suggest that perhaps many of those who might historically have been labelled as such were actually just misunderstood introverted intuitives. I see the conflict between Ni and Te as particularly severe (much more so than Ne/Ti, for example) and I think it's unsurprising that such a conflict might to give rise to schizotypal personality disorders.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  6. #286
    Member Debaser's Avatar
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    You guys are making it too complicated. It's really quite simple.

    INTP is the wise good guy. INTJ is his evil genius archenemy.

    For instance:
    Gandalf = INTP, Sauroman = INTJ
    Yoda = INTP, The Emperor = INTJ
    Professor X = INTP, Magneto = INTJ
    Fox Mulder = INTP, Cigarette Smoking Man = INTJ
    Neo = INTP, Agent Smith = INTJ
    Dumbledore = INTP, Voldemort = INTJ
    Sherlock Holmes = INTP, Moriarty = INTJ

    And so on and so forth.

  7. #287
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Debaser View Post
    You guys are making it too complicated. It's really quite simple.

    INTP is the wise good guy. INTJ is his evil genius archenemy.

    For instance:
    Gandalf = INTP, Sauroman = INTJ
    Yoda = INTP, The Emperor = INTJ
    Professor X = INTP, Magneto = INTJ
    Fox Mulder = INTP, Cigarette Smoking Man = INTJ
    Neo = INTP, Agent Smith = INTJ
    Dumbledore = INTP, Voldemort = INTJ
    Sherlock Holmes = INTP, Moriarty = INTJ

    And so on and so forth.
    Ironically, a collaboration of an INTP with an INTJ has the potential to both build and tear asunder the whole of creation.

    Just imagine what would happen in any of the examples you mentioned, if the parties involved managed to work out a diplomatic solution instead of fighting each other. The possibilities are infinite.

    Of course, to bridge that huge mental language barrier is no easy feat. But if it could be done...
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  8. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by Debaser View Post
    You guys are making it too complicated. It's really quite simple.

    INTP is the wise good guy. INTJ is his evil genius archenemy.

    For instance:
    Gandalf = INTP, Sauroman = INTJ
    Yoda = INTP, The Emperor = INTJ
    Professor X = INTP, Magneto = INTJ
    Fox Mulder = INTP, Cigarette Smoking Man = INTJ
    Neo = INTP, Agent Smith = INTJ
    Dumbledore = INTP, Voldemort = INTJ
    Sherlock Holmes = INTP, Moriarty = INTJ

    And so on and so forth.
    Why are you so convinced that the good guys are P, and the bad guys are J?
    When it comes to fictional typings, I get very skeptical; it's questionable whether or not there's even enough consistency within the characters to assign them a strict type.
    I don't know too much about the other guys, but Gandalf is often typed as an INTJ, and Yoda as an INFJ, or less often an INTJ as well. I'm not saying one is right and the other is wrong, but just that there's other perspectives out there on the topic.

    Gandalf is the archetypal Merlin by the way, and Yoda is more like Lao Tzu, in my opinion. Those legendary sages could possibly be typed, maybe not with complete certainty, but a lot more of it.

  9. #289
    Member Debaser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaptorWizard View Post
    Why are you so convinced that the good guys are P, and the bad guys are J?
    When it comes to fictional typings, I get very skeptical; it's questionable whether or not there's even enough consistency within the characters to assign them a strict type.
    I don't know too much about the other guys, but Gandalf is often typed as an INTJ, and Yoda as an INFJ, or less often an INTJ as well. I'm not saying one is right and the other is wrong, but just that there's other perspectives out there on the topic.

    Gandalf is the archetypal Merlin by the way, and Yoda is more like Lao Tzu, in my opinion. Those legendary sages could possibly be typed, maybe not with complete certainty, but a lot more of it.

  10. #290
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    I must have missed the punchline. I thought jokes were supposed to be funny.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

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