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  1. #101
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    Don't give up on math. In grade school it is most often taught by S's for S's. Procedure is the emphasis and not concepts.

    Take a proofs course to get a flavor of what higher math is like. It is the only domain in which you can discuss immutable truth with absolute precision. And the problems are hard, which is good.

  2. #102
    Member IntrovertedThinker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    The above two five posts were complete tripe.
    Care to explain?
    Mere assertion is tripe.

    Additionally, if you didn't agree with my take on INTJ's, too bad.
    Explain why you disagree.
    This has been accurate about most INTJ's I've encountered.

  3. #103
    Senior Member Robopop's Avatar
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    I think that INTJs can be just as openminded(maybe even more) as INTPs, just in a different way. They have more freedom with Ni, they have less reliance on definitional terms, an idea that might seem like a complete contradiction to an INTP(surely we won't be too happy about that), to an INTJ, they can come at it from a totally different interpretation, a new angle or prespective on the idea while the INTP can't get past the idea not being definitionally consistent.

    Ti is all about precision too, even more than Te(although it might not be as concerned with external criteria, rules). From the outside an INTP(Ne) will look alot more openminded than an INTJ(Te), INTPs can be extremely speculative while INTJs might play it more safe because they need to be sure of the subject being discussed(this might make INTJs look more competent too, INTPs blathering off at the mouth can look foolish), but if an idea can be shown to work to the INTJ, they will be willing to consider ANY idea. Te can just appear so ruthless sometimes, but Ni seems very big picture oriented, it will look at an idea from different interpretations.

    INTPs have an laidback, easygoing approach to dealing with the external world(this at worst can make us look like slacking lazy bastards), they might be more risk-taking too(in the intellectual realm), this will make them appear more openminded than most Js in general, but INTJs just have to let their guard down, I'm sure it can be quite a surprise what you will find, I wish I knew some INTJs IRL to get the drop on them.
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  4. #104
    Cheeseburgers freeeekyyy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IntrovertedThinker View Post
    Care to explain?
    Mere assertion is tripe.

    Additionally, if you didn't agree with my take on INTJ's, too bad.
    Explain why you disagree.
    This has been accurate about most INTJ's I've encountered.
    I think it is, really.

    Oh, and I'd say Ni is just as left-brained as Te. It may not be "linear," but it is very "sequential." It is not globalistic like right-brained, extraverted intuition. Out of multiple possibilities, only one is most likely. That's introverted intuition, and that's a very "left-brained" way of looking at things.

    Also, MRI scans and all that. And the fact that the connection between the hemispheres is insufficient to use two main functions on opposite sides of the brain together in any effective manner.
    You lose.

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  5. #105
    Member IntrovertedThinker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robopop View Post
    I think that INTJs can be just as openminded(maybe even more) as INTPs, just in a different way.
    I wouldn't call almost 100% reliance on empirical data open-minded, even in a different way. INTJ's are open to possibilities, so long as they are founded, in this hardcore sequential manner, i.e — they test ideas according to what they know in a very rigorous fashion. If the ideas don't pass this sequential breakdown, they are more likely to consider it rubbish, if anything. I've seen it happen all the time.

    True open-mindedness is to consider ideas which might not seem applicable at first, and try them anyway, only to discard them once they have shown to be truly useless. To my mind, this seems true of ENTP's and INTP's. We are open to all kinds of left-field possibilities which other people might consider impossible, or implausible. INTJ's seem more limited to truly practical possibilities. In fact, many sites often state that one of the pitfalls of being INTJ is that they usually dismiss ideas before actually understanding them thoroughly, i.e. — before giving them a chance. "Actually try to understand an idea before dismissing it" is one of the ways in which INTJ's can actually grow and mature.

    They have more freedom with Ni, they have less reliance on definitional terms, an idea that might seem like a complete contradiction to an INTP(surely we won't be too happy about that), to an INTJ, they can come at it from a totally different interpretation, a new angle on the idea while the INTP can't get past the idea not being definitionally consistent. Ti is all about precision too, even more than Te.
    I'm not so sure Ni is more free than Ne (which is where our ideas as INT thinkers inherently arise). And I'm fairly sure that Te is entirely more restrictive and limiting than Ti. Definitional terms (Ti) do not restrict ideas (Ne), in terms of possibilities — they only keep them coherent. Thus, an idea which may be entirely impractical, but which is nonetheless coherent, will seem worth discussing to an INTP. An INTJ, on the other hand, driven by a larger need to sequentially verify ideas (Ni) according to what is empirically known (Te) will only accept what is practical. Thus, an idea which may be slightly incoherent, but which is actually practical, will appeal to an INTJ.

    Thus, I see practical/impractical to be more limiting than whether or not an idea is actually entirely coherent, from a purely logical standpoint. And again, Ti never usually stifles an INTP's thoughts. Ideas are bouncing around and Ti is trying to control them, but those ideas will be considered and played with as long as they are coherent, even if they don't actually apply to the real world. Hence, INTP's enjoy thinking in and of itself, and enjoy thoughts even if they may not be practical or applicable. INTP's appreciate beautiful constructs of thought, even if they aren't worth anything in a practical sense. INTJ's only enjoy thinking with a purpose that has clearly defined ends, i.e. — something that will actually be worth the effort and pay off in the end. INTJ's don't like armchair philosophizing as much as INTP's. To me, this is more narrow-minded.

    From the outside an INTP(Ne) will look alot more openminded than an INTJ(Te), INTPs can be extremely speculative while INTJs might play it more safe because they need to be sure of the subject being discussed(this might make INTJs look more competent too, INTPs blathering off at the mouth can look foolish), but if an idea can be shown to work to the INTJ, they will be willing consider ANY idea. Te can just appear so ruthless sometimes, but Ni seems very big picture oriented, it will look at an idea from different interpretations.
    Considering only ideas that are shown to work is not open-minded — it's narrow and limited to what is practical and applicable to the real world. Boundless amounts of possibilities are bubbling around in the world beyond what we may 'think' is workable or practical. ENTP's and INTP's show this often. We're more open to what may be beyond current comprehension. Hence, INTJ's are limited to what 'seems' practical in the current, according to what we know scientifically. NTP's may look beyond our current understanding when seeking possibilities, and this difference is crucial. Thus, INTJ's might be open-minded, to an extent, but nowhere nearly as open as ENTP's and INTP's. They seem to have a natural epistemological barrier upon which they tend to rely. They don't enjoy going beyond empirical boundaries. So no, INTJ's aren't open-minded in the way INTP's are, and I wouldn't really call their sense of possibilities "open," per se. You're really reaching here.

    And the notion that Te appears ruthless at times is the tip of the iceberg — it's often entirely tyrannical and brutish.

  6. #106
    Member IntrovertedThinker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by freeeekyyy View Post
    I think it is, really.

    Oh, and I'd say Ni is just as left-brained as Te. It may not be "linear," but it is very "sequential." It is not globalistic like right-brained, extraverted intuition. Out of multiple possibilities, only one is most likely. That's introverted intuition, and that's a very "left-brained" way of looking at things.

    Also, MRI scans and all that. And the fact that the connection between the hemispheres is insufficient to use two main functions on opposite sides of the brain together in any effective manner.
    Agreed. I've seen many sites which show Te and Ni as left-brain functions, while Ne and Ti are right-brain functions. I think that shows the difference between these two types most clearly.

  7. #107
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    Robopop: you got it.

    Introvert: you don't.

    Neither does freeky.

  8. #108
    Cheeseburgers freeeekyyy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Robopop: you got it.

    Introvert: you don't.

    Neither does freeky.
    Explain. I think I know my own type pretty well. What is wrong with this analysis?
    You lose.

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  9. #109
    Member IntrovertedThinker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by freeeekyyy View Post
    Explain. I think I know my own type pretty well. What is wrong with this analysis?
    He's probably too coward to actually explain himself. Pity.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by IntrovertedThinker View Post
    He's probably too coward to actually explain himself. Pity.
    It's "cowardly".

    And nothing could be further from the truth.

    Unfortunately, there were so many things wrong with what you wrote that I won't be able to respond to it from my phone, nor til I have more time to write...

    ...after getting to a computer, and having a little time to write:

    Freeky: in your signature, I like the one-line descriptions you have of six of the eight functions (and by "I like", I mean "they are good"), but your one-line descriptions of Ni and Si are poor at best, especially the one for Ni. I felt the same way about the quality of your description of Ni in your earlier post. To consider Ni a left-brained activity is extremely flawed. The most recent work I've seen has said that both T functions take place in the front of the left hemisphere of the brain, while both N functions take place in the front of the right hemisphere of the brain (see below for more detail). Whatever the case may be, it seems you are mistaking Ni's ability to focus on an issue (an ability greatly lacking in its Ne counterpart) with it being a left-brained activity. I think that is a clear conflation of two things that should be kept very separate from each other.

    Introvert: you committed so many errors in your thinking that it's difficult to even know where to start. Seeing as how the vast majority of your post could essentially be wrapped up by the following statement: "INTJs take ideas seriously, and they ruin my playtime by caring about soundness, as opposed to just playing along with me, regardless of how unsound my ideas might be, and it bothers me, waaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!", it really shouldn't be surprising that your thinking would be so riddled with errors. Do you even realize that your posts basically contained little more than typological bias, and that all you're doing is complaining that NTJs see your "idea playtime" as trivial frivolity not worthy of their time (since they're more concerned with finding actual truths, not just playing around with ideas regardless of their [lack of] soundness), and then labeling the NTJ perspective as "close-mindedness". Furthermore, you seem to spend much time devoted to discussing the linearity of Te, but very little time devoted to the fact that Ti is an extremely linear function itself (probably the most so), while seemingly failing to acknowledge the fact that Ne seems unable to stay focused on a single subject, while Ni possesses a phenomenal ability to do so (realize that this ability to focus serves as an aid to linearity, but is not linearity in and of itself). The difference between Te and Ti is not in their linearity (although, even by most Ti-users' accounts, Ti is the more linear of the two [Ti-users are often complaining that Te-users use "sloppy logic" and make "inconsistent logical jumps"]), but that Te cares about soundness (i.e., representational and/or pragmatic truth, which is why it aims to verify Ni's intuitions via empirical observation and testing), while Ti cares about validity (i.e., internally consistent truth, based on whatever principles, regardless of their representational veracity, have been posited for a particular thought experiment). And, to be quite honest, validity is just a cheap form of soundness, lacking the requisite possession of actual truth; so all you're really saying is that NTJs care about finding actual truth, while NTPs don't. So, riddle me this: why should any of us care about your long-winded whining? Boo fucking hoo.

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