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  1. #71
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    My Fe sucks. Sorry. I don't know whether this is a function of Fe, but I tend to get a backwards reaction to emotional stuff, like feeling like laughing when people cry, which alarms me a lot. But recently, I started emoting a bit more and more normally. I cry when I watch tv shows during appropriate times. Still, I cringe from melodrama or deliberate displays of sentimentality, which I think is rather cheap. Fe function is a bit extreme in my experience - either not there at all, or overwhelmingly so.

    I agree about the guilt thing. After examining myself for so long, I finally realised that other types are more capable of projecting and criticising than internalizing their own issues, which makes them more capable for doing bad things unknowingly. But on the other hand, I like the fact that my own failings gets pointed out sometimes. While I do not think that it is entirely fair (emotional people are never fair), self-awareness is beneficial.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duchessoftheshadows View Post
    It's like i want it to be known I appreciate the time taken out of your *generally* day to respond and if i didn't i'd feel like " oh no, they may think i'm ungrateful." I'll go back to correct it and stuff. Mother/sis are both SFJ so i don't know if that would play a factor at all.
    Yup, that's the issue. Both my mother and younger sister are ISFJs and I was raised with lots of ISFJ influence and have always gotten along well with them (aside being consistently frustrated by their lack of vision and fear of the unknown)... I had this veneer of Fe style behavior but it was very tempermental, I feel like I only fleshed it out in the last two years; and being immersed in a particular religious tradition with strong Fe-style controls didn't help. (i.e., if you deviate from the list of "appropriate behavior," you're "bad"; while inside I severely doubted the authenticity of the rules, it made me pretty neurotic externally because I didn't want to be rejected.) It can be quite the cage.

    Anyway, it's hard to tease out what is natural and what is learned. Once I came into my own, the Fe went back to its "proper" place, priority-wise, in my life; and I could use it rather than be used by it, and my actual strengths became far more apparent.

    What do you mean in NT terms "Identity/essense" of oneself?
    NT tends to seek the universal essence and definition of objects; NF tends to seek for a personal vision and lifepath, their own unique definition. An NT can always bend her impersonal perceptions towards herself, seeking her own "universal definition."

    Think of it like the process of Naming in LeGuin's Earthsea. NF's name things based on their relevance/significance to themselves. Naming in Earthsea is more more NT in nature, everything (living or inanimate) has a name in the True Speech that utterly defines and encompasses it.... even people. Every person's True Name described their essence, and knowing someone's name gave you power over them because you knew who they were.

    Can you see the difference between the two?

    oh...Are INTP women much different then the INTP male? okay so maybe this isn't a type thing, just a reaction to the situation? .
    Are there differences within ANY type between males and females? The answer seems to be yes, whether because of biology differences or socialization differences. Each gender typical has different expectations set for it and pressures put upon it by society, and the mother/father role model interaction is different, etc.

    Even if two things are exactly the same at start (such as identical twins, genetically), we see them differentiate from each other as life unfolds because they are in different circumstances/positions.

    There have been a number of threads about INTP women, both here and on INTPcentral, compared to men. There are a lot of similarities; INTP women still tend to deal better with people but also have had to carry a lot of baggage from society because they aren't like "normal" women (society's words) and often have issues with the more traditional female role model, i.e., mom. If men have issues with Mom, it's because she's usually overprotective or constrictive or a guilt inducer, NOT because she's insisting that she should be their role model... It's a different type of interaction.

    Like when theirs conflict i like to solve it on the spot and work it out. She doesn't like to do that, she'd rather led it go and not confront it. Which i don't know if that is a good technique heh but she's been through alot so i imagine she's burned out emotionally. I do take it personal sometimes as if why can't we have an emotional interaction or discussion to resolve a conflict? I'm just trying to work on it i guess.
    Yes, my ISFJ mom is very gentle and kind-hearted and can't stand conflict... which is what I found out when I tried to push one. It screwed her up physically (the heart issues) and she completely drops into J mode and clings to her old ways of thinking, she can't handle looking at new ideas. She told someone else that I confuse her when I challenge her with my ideas and if she doesn't just shove them away, then she doesn't know what to say and feels like she has to accept my thinking but doesn't want to (I'm talking mostly religious beliefs here but it applies everywhere). Of course she could not even tell me that, she had to tell someone else... because she doesn't want to challenge me directly. Sigh.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #73
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duchessoftheshadows View Post
    Hi Eric B .
    hmm....oppositional.
    Can you tell me more about oppositional Fe? .
    I put a lower t just cause it does seem to be one of my problems.
    in "was that really me?" Naomi states below.
    Pg. 49-50 Character of the inferior function
    Tunnel Vision: An important characteristic of all inferior functions is tunnel vision. This is what makes whatever is being experienced seem real and believable. We can compare this with how we would react to the same thing when we are not in the grip. We think, how could I have believed that? or I must have been blind not to have seen that!.
    When we focus on a limited piece of reality, what we perceive or conclude may certainly be true, valid, logical, and real. But its import and impact are likely to be out of proportion because all the information that lies outside the tunnel is not available to us. This larger body of data or thought usually tempers the perception or judgment made within the tunnel. The issue on which we focus when in the grip may appropriately be seen as trivial or without substance when viewed in a broader context.


    How would Te be inferior. I read it in her book it just doesn't click for me like Fe inferior does hmm...
    OK, if it doesn't fit...
    Some of what Quenk is saying there sounds a bit shadowy, but then the inferior is at the boundary of the shadow, and is considered shadow by four process theory; especially when it's undeveloped.

    But to answer your question; Oppositional Fe is shadowing dominant Fi, and as a part of what's called the "spine of consciousness"; it's ultimately defending the ego, whose main function would be an internal value system. The Anima is also on the spine, but is more the vulnerable part. Te as animus (and male at that!) as a vulnerable core of the soul is hard for me to imagine. It probably comes out in the desire to be equal to men.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ericB
    Some of that sounds a bit like descriptions of the INFP with their Fi, feeling pressured to give in, and then feeling bad afterward. Stuff like this made it hard to sort the difference.
    Hmm. It's possible. It's so hard to determine what a function looks like in a specific individual -- namely an introvert vs an extrovert. Fe is Fe, but it tends to express itself different depending on its priority in the personality and what functions are prioritized above it.

    I don't think extroverts ever really bad about using an extroverted function to deal with others or wield in some way, the outer world is where they live instinctively. Introverts though instinctively want to live internally, yet are forced to use their extroverted style functions sometimes as defense mechanisms, etc.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #75
    Senior Member avolkiteshvara's Avatar
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    I never know how I feel at any given moment. So I sometimes get myself into situations that aren't emotionally healthy and don't realize it until everything blows up.

  6. #76
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    I don't remember if I responded to this in detail, so if I didn't... here goes.

    Quote Originally Posted by blankpages View Post
    ...I tell her I'd be glad to help out if I'm asked, but she keeps insisting I "should do it without asking". I also get irritated because it seems like she's manipulating or testing me.
    Oh geez. Been there, experienced that... it gets old REALLY fast. meh.

    With me I'm pretty sure it's a combination of low Fe and Se (I seem to have very low use of both).
    My Se isn't hot unless I'm actively using it to gather info for Ti or the sort of detail noticed is important to me. I'm very very aware of other people's expectations for me in a given situation, but I usually internalize it and not let on that I realize it, in order to retain maximum freedom of options for myself; as soon as you admit you know what is expected, they'll call you on it... but then I'll feel like I'm being duplicitous. So dealing with people like that can be a real drain on me.

    So often I won't even notice that a chore needs to be done, or that she's actually doing it. I could be sitting at the computer and hearing the dishes bang around in the sink, but it doesn't fully register that she's doing the dishes, let alone that she might like some help. More likely, I'd be absorbed in an online article or game and vaguely aware of the sound of the dishes. I might think something like, "Huh. Clankity clank." and then my attention drifts right back to the contents of my computer screen. Then later she may get irritated with me. "Come on. How could you not notice? Are you deaf?"
    I did that a lot with reading when I was a kid, I'd trance out. But I've noticed all three of my kids (INFJ, ESFP, INTP) are quite capable of this behavior too, part of it might just be that multitasking takes longer to develop?

    Another source of misunderstanding seems to be how to respond when someone is upset or bothered about something. Like others have described, I'm not sure what to do if there isn't any solution or analysis or facts to be stated. I often hold myself back from a person if I'm worried something else might be needed. I don't really "get" comforting. I mean, I can understand why someone would want it, but I don't get how to do it. My mother seems to want me to say cliched things like "It'll be okay" when she's talking about something she's worried about. I don't want to say something unless I know it to be true. If I don't know how things will turn out, why make a declaration about it? I also hate it when people say those things to me. It seems condescending and fake.
    Despite how I might seem to come across here (some people think I'm warm and engaging and even claim I'm an F), what you describe is actually my internal experience when I was younger and still mostly my experience now. I feel clumsy when I try to say 'warm encouraging things;' I don't have an intuitive feel for it, I'm basically repeating a script I've learned over a number of years that has been effective so I keep using it and honing it; and I get annoyed/turned off when other people are warm and emo, sometimes it feels very fake to me even if I can tell it's natural for them.

    Note that this does not mean I do not authentically care for people and want to help/comfort them, it's just that the natural way I do that is by reframing a situation for them and helping them see new possibilities, thus encouraging them; and I go back to some core insights that I think will be helpful for them to grasp. IOW, my comfort comes through "idea sharing / insights," not through pure emotional affirmation; and when I can't give any insights, I get really uncomfortable and have no idea what to do. (This has been a big issue with my ESFP kid; he works totally on "emotional affirmation" and I feel I am a lousy parent for him because I can't give him what he wants, and he doesn't often want what I have to give; the other two kids deal more with articulated ideas than he does.)

    I have a hard time figuring out how to act in more relaxed social situations as well. I can chat casually with people, but I have a hard time moving it to the next level, knowing when and what to self-disclose, how to respond to their self-disclosures, etc.
    yes, I went through all that too. It's only recently that I'm learning boundaries on that. What I did before, since I didn't know what to do, was basically see if someone wasn't a creep... and then I'd tell him or her everything and meanwhile try to be tough enough to deal with fallout. Either that or I wouldn't say much at all and was very guarded. Not great at times. Now I sort of create "levels of access" even if I think someone could deal okay, and I just wait until I feel it's appropriate (after continued in interaction) to bump someone up.

    I've questioned myself whether I'm more INFP (if I'm not INTP, that would be my next guess). I've been told I'm an expressive writer (when I decide to be), and I know the stereotypes are "INTPs don't understand their own feelings well" and even "INTPs don't have very strong feelings".
    I think that's a load of kaka. Everyone has feelings, just not everyone has opinions (which are often driven by feelings); INTPs tend to ruthless screen out their opinions and preferences in their effort to just describe "what is" and be accurate.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #77
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    In long conversations about concepts I found a particular drift between me and my seemingly unhealthy INFP friend.

    He would get very passionate about an idea and being male would try to rationalise it to impersonal principles. I would then argue the toss that his principles were flawed and his logic was all askew. We would then fight for a while until he'd just say "I want it like that okay?" to which the response would go "that's fine, that's all you had to say". Also he seems frustrated when the logical analysis of his ideas don't meet up with his ideals and his wants where as with me I tend to have an interest as to why it doesn't work and will occasionally restructure myself around this new found principle. He will too but usually it has to have an upside that he can get behind, something which makes it okay.

    As for explosions of Fe, most of the time I try to head them off by simply realising that what I want doesn't always have to be logical or sensible. It is what it is. My friend seems to have less of a problem in that particular arena unless he's trying to be logical (which he does a lot).

    Also under analysis my INFP friend tends to be more accepting of my suggestions, more so than I wish most of the time and has changed his behaviour to meet whatever type I'm suggesting he is at the time. Only after my father went through the conversation with me did he decide that the guy was an INFP and showed me how he was flexing to be what I described.

    Another difference I've observed is that he wants to be special. Personally I'm not so bothered. When he suggests an idea if it's not treated as valued then he'll get hostile where as I will do such if they don't consider what I say. Carrying on regardless doesn't bother me but not thinking that what I took time in crafting and effort in communicating is worth considering is quite an insult in my terms.

    As for the book, I find that Quenk rather worryingly groups types and seems to skim over the differences. It always feels to me that she's overly obsessed with reducing upon redundancy and in doing so misses some of the differences. Reading through the help for ESTPs and ESFPs my wife finds that half of it doesn't really sit well with her and I think it's down to that grouping.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  8. #78
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    Seem to laugh more than most people (even at sad stuff) I don't know if its an Irish American thing or an INTP/F(e) thang. Laughing seems to be a way to address or acknowledge my feelings without truly understanding them.
    Last edited by Vizconde; 10-19-2009 at 12:18 PM. Reason: slight elbab
    I redact everything I have written or will write on this forum prior to, subsequent with and or after the fact of its writing. For entertainment purposes only and not to be taken seriously nor literally.

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  9. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Yup, that's the issue. Both my mother and younger sister are ISFJs and I was raised with lots of ISFJ influence and have always gotten along well with them (aside being consistently frustrated by their lack of vision and fear of the unknown)... I had this veneer of Fe style behavior but it was very tempermental, I feel like I only fleshed it out in the last two years; and being immersed in a particular religious tradition with strong Fe-style controls didn't help. (i.e., if you deviate from the list of "appropriate behavior," you're "bad"; while inside I severely doubted the authenticity of the rules, it made me pretty neurotic externally because I didn't want to be rejected.) It can be quite the cage.



    Definitely about the " if your deviate from the list of "appropriate behaviors" thing. If your not fitting neatly into that daughter role, *for me at least* i feel cast aside as if i'm invalid cause i question anything worth questioning.

    I don't know if this could be Fe inferior but i get absolutely angry and feel that "tunnel vision" thing when it seems as though my oldest sister is trying to play "mother" with me. I always would say " just cause your the oldest doesn't mean your my second mother, I have a mother and a father to reprimend me.

    I guess a "know your role as my sister" kind of idea.
    I get quite hung up on Fe relationship roles.


    Anyway, it's hard to tease out what is natural and what is learned. Once I came into my own, the Fe went back to its "proper" place, priority-wise, in my life; and I could use it rather than be used by it, and my actual strengths became far more apparent.



    NT tends to seek the universal essence and definition of objects; NF tends to seek for a personal vision and lifepath, their own unique definition. An NT can always bend her impersonal perceptions towards herself, seeking her own "universal definition."

    Think of it like the process of Naming in LeGuin's Earthsea. NF's name things based on their relevance/significance to themselves. Naming in Earthsea is more more NT in nature, everything (living or inanimate) has a name in the True Speech that utterly defines and encompasses it.... even people. Every person's True Name described their essence, and knowing someone's name gave you power over them because you knew who they were.

    Can you see the difference between the two?

    Could you go into "NT can always bend her impersonal perceptions toward herself, seeking her own "universal definition" and NF personal vision and lifepath like what is deep down inside or something?.

    For NT *Earthsea* is it like everything is defined precisely/categorized? True speech? What is LeGuin's Earthsea?

    I'm going to on out on a limb here but could that NFs Naming things based on their relevance/significance to themselves be the cause of mistyping. NT is more hard to define in that way.

    I think i can. I feel as if i'm missing something though like i don't completely understand it possibly.


    Are there differences within ANY type between males and females? The answer seems to be yes, whether because of biology differences or socialization differences. Each gender typical has different expectations set for it and pressures put upon it by society, and the mother/father role model interaction is different, etc.

    Even if two things are exactly the same at start (such as identical twins, genetically), we see them differentiate from each other as life unfolds because they are in different circumstances/positions.

    There have been a number of threads about INTP women, both here and on INTPcentral, compared to men. There are a lot of similarities; INTP women still tend to deal better with people but also have had to carry a lot of baggage from society because they aren't like "normal" women (society's words) and often have issues with the more traditional female role model, i.e., mom. If men have issues with Mom, it's because she's usually overprotective or constrictive or a guilt inducer, NOT because she's insisting that she should be their role model... It's a different type of interaction.

    *oooh*

    Yes, my ISFJ mom is very gentle and kind-hearted and can't stand conflict... which is what I found out when I tried to push one. It screwed her up physically (the heart issues) and she completely drops into J mode and clings to her old ways of thinking, she can't handle looking at new ideas. She told someone else that I confuse her when I challenge her with my ideas and if she doesn't just shove them away, then she doesn't know what to say and feels like she has to accept my thinking but doesn't want to (I'm talking mostly religious beliefs here but it applies everywhere). Of course she could not even tell me that, she had to tell someone else... because she doesn't want to challenge me directly. Sigh.
    I notice that in SFJs alot is the avoidance of conflict even at the risk of healthy communication. Quite baffling

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    OK, if it doesn't fit...
    Some of what Quenk is saying there sounds a bit shadowy, but then the inferior is at the boundary of the shadow, and is considered shadow by four process theory; especially when it's undeveloped.

    But to answer your question; Oppositional Fe is shadowing dominant Fi, and as a part of what's called the "spine of consciousness"; it's ultimately defending the ego, whose main function would be an internal value system. The Anima is also on the spine, but is more the vulnerable part. Te as animus (and male at that!) as a vulnerable core of the soul is hard for me to imagine. It probably comes out in the desire to be equal to men.
    hmm... i agree with the whole wanting to be equal to men but maybe that's just being a modern women? I definitely don't appreciate when i feel lower or less then males just "cause" i'm female. That's not enough of a reason grrr. Judge me by my ability right?

    ahhh i see, so someone violates a Fi value which leads to Fe taking a defensive stance?
    Which i'm curious what defines Fi values compared to Ti principles?
    I think i understand Fi values it's just unclear to me somewhat still.
    What is Feeling?
    Feeling is primarily a process.....that imparts to the content a definite value in the sense of acceptance or rejection. In the same way that thinking organizes the contents of consciousness under concepts, feeling arranges them according to their value. Feeling, like thinking, is a rational function, since values in general are assigned according to the laws of reason...
    (Carl Jung, Psychological Types, Chapter XI - Definitions)

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    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    I don't know if this could be Fe inferior but i get absolutely angry and feel that "tunnel vision" thing when it seems as though my oldest sister is trying to play "mother" with me. I always would say " just cause your the oldest doesn't mean your my second mother, I have a mother and a father to reprimend me.
    That can also be Fi, it's not really clear.
    Fi marches to one's inner vision and resists imposition.

    I guess a "know your role as my sister" kind of idea.
    I get quite hung up on Fe relationship roles.
    Again, I'm not sure if Fe makes one more susceptible or less. There's a compliance issue on the surface; there's a "repulsion" issue underneath... and the face that Fe is not a primary or secondary but further down the line means it gets used differently.

    My INFJ daughter used to try to boss her older brothers around. Interestingly, the INTP just sort of shrugged her off -- he was offended at first because she was unfairly trying to control him, but pretty quickly he decided it was no threat (he was the oldest) and would just gently shrug her off, and they quickly developed this "eldest/youngest" kinship where they are just sweet together.

    It was the ESFP brother she had the worst time with... and who freaked out the most and couldn't handle even the suggestion that she might tell him what to do. They still fight over this sort of thing, years later. His Fi is secondary for him, her Fe is secondary for her. But again, if he was introverted, would it be different?

    Could you go into "NT can always bend her impersonal perceptions toward herself, seeking her own "universal definition" and NF personal vision and lifepath like what is deep down inside or something?.
    NTs really do try to examine the outer world and derive principles that are definitive, by which they can either exert control -- either by forcing certain outcomes to occur (Te) or definitively labeling things as their true selves (Ti). Either way, they're stating something truthful about the world.

    NFs typically are not interested as much in impersonal truth about something as much as its relevance to them. Elsewhere someone (Xander?) mentioned that an INFP friend would get upset if their ideas were dissed because the ideas were special to THEM and reflective of THEIR reality even if they could acknowledge the idea might not hold up in the external world. There is a "true path" for a particular individual that resonates with them, etc.; the framework is the things they value and thus see as true, but these values might not be self-evident to everything like the NT, which derives them from observable and intuitable reality.

    Look at it another way: Things exist, but "meaning" is ascribed. This is very general to say, but NTs describe what exist or CAN exist, while NFs ascribe meaning or potential meaning.

    For NT *Earthsea* is it like everything is defined precisely/categorized? True speech? What is LeGuin's Earthsea?
    It's a world created by (INTJ?) author Ursula LeGuin, starting back in the late 60's/early 70's which she still occasionally writes within. The power of the wizards of Earthsea was that they could look at things and know their True Names (or essence) and thus control them, wielding power over them. People had "use name" (AKA nicknames), but only their few trusted loved ones knew their True Name because to give someone knowledge of one's name gave power to them over you. One of the wizards, Ged, describes wizards as people who know what things are; they know their names.

    If you know the True Name of something, you know exactly what it is. It's like a dictionary where each definition is only one word long but totally encompasses the reality of that item or person. it assumes there is an objective reality that can be known.

    I'm going to on out on a limb here but could that NFs Naming things based on their relevance/significance to themselves be the cause of mistyping. NT is more hard to define in that way.
    I think it can be mistyping if it is taken to be the universal definition of something. However, NF's "naming" something actually is quite accurate and not a lie at all... if you remain aware that they are not describing the universal essence of something but simply the thing's relevance to them. In that sense you are getting a VERY clear picture of their view of meaning.

    I notice that in SFJs alot is the avoidance of conflict even at the risk of healthy communication. Quite baffling
    Actually, I've seen it in ISFx but not as much in ESFx... they're far more willing to engage. However EFs often seem afraid to address dark emotions even if they express them readily.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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