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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Frameworks I would say consist of principles. Symmetry is a principle, and type or temperament are frameworks made up of symmetries.

    I have also heard Fi users here describe their value systems as "frameworks" (such as "moral framework"). And they are (just like "principles" and "values" can be interchangeable as well).
    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    The logic of them could include something like the symmetry. I like symmetry; just something cool about it. Even though there is an "emotional investment" in it, it is still ultimately "detached", meaning from me in practical terms. "What does that [my interests] do for you and your growth?" my parents and some others would ask. I couldn't answer. It was just something that was cool that I liked to ponder on or discuss, but to others, it was a lack of proper prioritization of importance. Values were supposed to be internal, while logic, external (efficiency, order such as neatness, etc). I was thrown a big loop last year with a whole notion in which the emotional investment in itself was "Feeling", or personal "valuing" as it was put, and T's sometimes painted as these Spocks who are totally "detached" in emotional investment altogether. some of the books's or sites' descriptions of T vs F seemed to go along with this sometimes, and you often saw some of this here, when people struggled between T and F (like the early "Mistyped Members" thread).
    So I guess that answers part of my question: the priority of "importance". I guess a theory that helps with self-improvement is deemed more important than others, regardless of the elegance of the symmetry. Hence, they will just want to take it like it is, and not bother so much with breaking it down to its parts.

    Again, symmetry is one of them. It's an observable and intuitive "mirror" dynamic of opposites, and even double-opposites that are identical, though reversed. I know one INTP who even rejects the Keirsey temperaments and Interaction Styles, because they are not symmetrical to the MBTI framework. In those groupings, the letters do not have the same meaning across the board. For S's; T/F is Interaction Style, and J/P is temperament, and for N's, it is the reverse. So this person, committing himself to the MBTI framework, prefers groupings like E/I + J/P (which some here have been mentioning a lot recently), or T/F + J/P.

    For me, the symmetry I am "committed" to is the FIRO framework (sort of an extension of the old Galen temperament matrix), and I find that it maps to Keirsey temperament and Interaction Styles. So I can't have a complete symmetry in the MBTI system, because I'm maintaining the symmetry of the other system. Yet it is interesting to see how the two cross, and there is at least some partial common symmetry.

    Of course, this is NTP. For NTJ's, the principles will be more external, based on what is efficient. They would look at the two and pick one based on which is more useful. MBTI uses easy four letter codes for its types, while FIRO uses score ranges. MBTI type notation is simpler, and therefore more efficient, and hence, what became more popular.
    I've been thinking of a way i could add to how i use symmetry as I definitely find it fascinating similar to your style. I recall you saying something that Xander said if something doesn't fit, find out why. When I was looking into the Enneagram I eventually realized I was 6w7 and for the variants SP SX SO. My tri-fix I only just figured out but it makes since too.

    I also wanted to figure out my Oldham styles. There's symmetry and that is very cool. It's similar to your way but I think it's to understand myself more and definitely in the service of Fi. I was thinking last night how I relate so much with the finding symmetry like I was trying to see how an INFP can also be 6w7 etc. It just fits, it's what makes me "me". It's symmetry of a different kind like I'm using the models but it has to have that symmetry for parts of me that "INFP" doesn't explain. When i found it INFP 6w7 etc. It was a beautiful symmetry, especially cause I wanted to remain true to the models.

    ""importance". I guess a theory that helps with self-improvement is deemed more important than others, regardless of the elegance of the symmetry. Hence, they will just want to take it like it is, and not bother so much with breaking it down to its parts..

    The whole breaking it down to it's parts, honestly that's how I've been learning mbti. I really like clarity and precision. Honestly thing my Ti has been getting practiced since I've been studying the mbti. Just cause of the breaking it down to it's parts. I do love to do that. I've done that with everything though. I definitely prefer Te cause I like things in there most simple terms and when they can they can be applied *learning math I have a hard time learning it so i just want to know how it can be applied. Anything I enjoy learning I break it down it's parts and examine them as to grasp it.

    The elegance of the symmetry is very important as i am following the model cause with that I am understanding how to better "self-improve".
    That's how i use Ti in following the model and taking it down to it's final parts, Ti is Fi's right hand helper in it's mission to find the self, define it and use the model to be a catalyst for inner growth and external improvement on behaviors. My Ne i think coupled with a decent Ti does allow me to have alittle fun with playing with it and breaking it down. It's alot of fun to refine it even if i already know what type i am.

    Just thought i'd add more thought to this, when i let my brain sink in the information. I just realize how Ti i use especially with this MBTI stuff but it's all in the flavor of Fi. For instance one of my thoughts last night were that it's like Ti is the introverted auxiliary for me in a way. It supports my Fi as Ne supports it as well. Like Fi Ne Ti Si Te or Fi Ti Ne Si Te etc.

    My Ti is not as refined as yours though hehe. It's definitely Fi's pawn XD.

    How has emotion been negative for you? Cause you mentioned that somewhere in one of these posts that you recognized emotion was usually negative for you but because you were in that emotion so much you got to see the positive side etc.

    Thanks Eric B .
    What is Feeling?
    Feeling is primarily a process.....that imparts to the content a definite value in the sense of acceptance or rejection. In the same way that thinking organizes the contents of consciousness under concepts, feeling arranges them according to their value. Feeling, like thinking, is a rational function, since values in general are assigned according to the laws of reason...
    (Carl Jung, Psychological Types, Chapter XI - Definitions)

  2. #92
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Oldham is interesting. I didn't find it comprehensively useful on its own, but mixed with other type systems it gives more nuance.

    For background:
    In 1984, John Oldham M.D. began work on a personality system for normally healthy people based on the neurotic categories of the psychiatrist's "bible", the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, referred to in shorthand as DSM. The first edition (DSM-I) was published in 1952, DSM-II in 1968, DSM-III in 1980, DSM-III-R in 1987, and finally the latest, DSM-IV in 1994. Dr. Oldham worked on the committee for DSM-IV...
    More info on Oldham can be found here.

    When I took it, I came out Idiosyncratic / Sensitive / Solitary (fairly close together, #4 was a big leap down). I think this gives flavor to the INtP 5w4 sx/sp reading. It also makes sense, considering the personality disorders that I most approximate (albeit on a lesser lever than the diagnosable disorders) are the counterparts to these three positive personality schemas.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #93
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duchessoftheshadows View Post
    I've been thinking of a way i could add to how i use symmetry as I definitely find it fascinating similar to your style. I recall you saying something that Xander said if something doesn't fit, find out why. When I was looking into the Enneagram I eventually realized I was 6w7 and for the variants SP SX SO. My tri-fix I only just figured out but it makes since too.
    I guess I could ask if you use the symmetries for their own sake, or is the focus more personal. I guess some of the liking of symmetry might be from the Ne also. Bu tNe + Ti will focus squarely on what makes up the symmetry; how the reflective parts mirror each ther, etc.

    I also wanted to figure out my Oldham styles. There's symmetry and that is very cool. It's similar to your way but I think it's to understand myself more and definitely in the service of Fi. I was thinking last night how I relate so much with the finding symmetry like I was trying to see how an INFP can also be 6w7 etc. It just fits, it's what makes me "me". It's symmetry of a different kind like I'm using the models but it has to have that symmetry for parts of me that "INFP" doesn't explain. When i found it INFP 6w7 etc. It was a beautiful symmetry, especially cause I wanted to remain true to the models.
    6w7 is usually ENFP. I guess INFP is going to be not that far. And hat you're saying there does sound more NFP.

    ""importance". I guess a theory that helps with self-improvement is deemed more important than others, regardless of the elegance of the symmetry. Hence, they will just want to take it like it is, and not bother so much with breaking it down to its parts..

    The whole breaking it down to it's parts, honestly that's how I've been learning mbti. I really like clarity and precision. Honestly thing my Ti has been getting practiced since I've been studying the mbti. Just cause of the breaking it down to it's parts. I do love to do that. I've done that with everything though. I definitely prefer Te cause I like things in there most simple terms and when they can they can be applied *learning math I have a hard time learning it so i just want to know how it can be applied. Anything I enjoy learning I break it down it's parts and examine them as to grasp it.

    The elegance of the symmetry is very important as i am following the model cause with that I am understanding how to better "self-improve".
    That's how i use Ti in following the model and taking it down to it's final parts, Ti is Fi's right hand helper in it's mission to find the self, define it and use the model to be a catalyst for inner growth and external improvement on behaviors. My Ne i think coupled with a decent Ti does allow me to have alittle fun with playing with it and breaking it down. It's alot of fun to refine it even if i already know what type i am.

    Just thought i'd add more thought to this, when i let my brain sink in the information. I just realize how Ti i use especially with this MBTI stuff but it's all in the flavor of Fi. For instance one of my thoughts last night were that it's like Ti is the introverted auxiliary for me in a way. It supports my Fi as Ne supports it as well. Like Fi Ne Ti Si Te or Fi Ti Ne Si Te etc.

    My Ti is not as refined as yours though hehe. It's definitely Fi's pawn XD.
    Yeah, all of that sounds NFP. If you say you like clarity and precision; I know that is usually associated with Ti, but it seems Te likes it as well. That's probably a mistake of many of the process descriptions, or it's just ambiguous at times. Hence, what I say about there really being only four functions, and the attitude is just where the ego choosed to apply the function. Te will demand pclarity and precision for more external reasons, while Ti wll desire them for internal reasons.

    You say you do like breaking it into its parts, but sometimes you hear that for Te as well. And you also said the elegance of the symmetry. But I'm sure there is a more "efficient' reason for all of that. Like the self-improvement. With me, it's all about the workings of the parts of the theory; oh; and it also happens to help you understand yurself and others too!

    How has emotion been negative for you? Cause you mentioned that somewhere in one of these posts that you recognized emotion was usually negative for you but because you were in that emotion so much you got to see the positive side etc.
    I'm getting ready to write more about my Fi use; basically the whole history of it and the different ways it manifests. I'll probably put it on my blog. You can get a sense of it in what I first wrote in this thread, and the similar long self-relevatory posts I made in the "Do You Regret Waiting" thread, and the one about emotions at death.
    But emotions would come up in negative situations, often strongly though not always expressed, and otherwise, I'm like "whatever". I think a lot of the stuff I went through also gave me a greater sense of my emotions, as well as enjoyment of things, which makes it seem like I might be F. But when really looking at the context the Feeling is used in, it is usually negative. (Including using positive emotions, and enjoyment to counter negative things).
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
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  4. #94
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    About a lot of things (but not all), I could hardly care less about what other people think. This may be reflected in my bum-like appearance and sometimes hygiene. I have virtually no compulsion to climb the social ladder, nor do I have the charm to do so. If I didn't control what I said at all, my speech would be wildly inappropriate--as evidenced by the private dialogs I have with an ISTP friend. We seem to have come up with our own language of obscenity, because we simply don't care about whatever sensitivities come with any given word.

    Overall I'd say I'm also relatively blind to a lot of social cues as well. Too often for my liking I realized a girl might have been interested in me long after the chance had passed. Furthermore, I have almost no interest in what is going on in friends' lives and what the latest gossip is. I have no propensity to keep current with things like sports, the news, whatever is 'hip.' Lastly, I guess, I often neglect to keep up appearances when I know damn well that I should.

    It's all been nicely summed up by my mother, recently: "why can't you just try to be normal," she pleaded with me as I told her that I would rather be a bum than have a full time job. FEH to that. People can suck my balls, and so can their stupid rituals.

  5. #95
    :) INFtha14's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Oldham is interesting. I didn't find it comprehensively useful on its own, but mixed with other type systems it gives more nuance.

    For background:


    More info on Oldham can be found here.

    When I took it, I came out Idiosyncratic / Sensitive / Solitary (fairly close together, #4 was a big leap down). I think this gives flavor to the INtP 5w4 sx/sp reading. It also makes sense, considering the personality disorders that I most approximate (albeit on a lesser lever than the diagnosable disorders) are the counterparts to these three positive personality schemas.
    ooh...forgot these posts.

    You said you took it? Online test?

    Zago
    I find gossip annoying too could that be an (I?)NP thing?
    what do you mean by you came up with your own language of
    obscenity?

    If any other INTPs who haven't answered want to continue to share there experience that would be cool as I would think there's never enough info heh.

    Or maybe even if INTPs are curious about INFPs I can try the best I can to help a fellow INTP understand the INFP, if so you can leave a message on my wall or here I just don't want to mess with the topic of discussion .

    I thank you all for your patience *especially Jennifer, Eric B, some others I'm forgetting. Sorry* and I'd gladly return the favor
    if any are curious enough .
    What is Feeling?
    Feeling is primarily a process.....that imparts to the content a definite value in the sense of acceptance or rejection. In the same way that thinking organizes the contents of consciousness under concepts, feeling arranges them according to their value. Feeling, like thinking, is a rational function, since values in general are assigned according to the laws of reason...
    (Carl Jung, Psychological Types, Chapter XI - Definitions)

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    About a lot of things (but not all), I could hardly care less about what other people think. This may be reflected in my bum-like appearance and sometimes hygiene. I have virtually no compulsion to climb the social ladder, nor do I have the charm to do so. If I didn't control what I said at all, my speech would be wildly inappropriate--as evidenced by the private dialogs I have with an ISTP friend. We seem to have come up with our own language of obscenity, because we simply don't care about whatever sensitivities come with any given word.

    Overall I'd say I'm also relatively blind to a lot of social cues as well. Too often for my liking I realized a girl might have been interested in me long after the chance had passed. Furthermore, I have almost no interest in what is going on in friends' lives and what the latest gossip is. I have no propensity to keep current with things like sports, the news, whatever is 'hip.' Lastly, I guess, I often neglect to keep up appearances when I know damn well that I should.

    It's all been nicely summed up by my mother, recently: "why can't you just try to be normal," she pleaded with me as I told her that I would rather be a bum than have a full time job. FEH to that. People can suck my balls, and so can their stupid rituals.
    lol, love this.

  7. #97
    Junior Member sonickel77's Avatar
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    About a lot of things (but not all), I could hardly care less about what other people think. This may be reflected in my bum-like appearance and sometimes hygiene. I have virtually no compulsion to climb the social ladder, nor do I have the charm to do so. If I didn't control what I said at all, my speech would be wildly inappropriate--as evidenced by the private dialogs I have with an ISTP friend. We seem to have come up with our own language of obscenity, because we simply don't care about whatever sensitivities come with any given word.

    Overall I'd say I'm also relatively blind to a lot of social cues as well. Too often for my liking I realized a girl might have been interested in me long after the chance had passed. Furthermore, I have almost no interest in what is going on in friends' lives and what the latest gossip is. I have no propensity to keep current with things like sports, the news, whatever is 'hip.' Lastly, I guess, I often neglect to keep up appearances when I know damn well that I should.

    It's all been nicely summed up by my mother, recently: "why can't you just try to be normal," she pleaded with me as I told her that I would rather be a bum than have a full time job. FEH to that. People can suck my balls, and so can their stupid rituals.
    Bloody hell. You could have described me here.
    And I'm a woman, which just makes things worse.

    I have no clue why women get so obsessed with fashion, jewellery, hair styles and gossip. It's led to me being fired from jobs because I'm not part of the team, and don't even make an effort to join in because it's so stupid. My marks at uni were great, but I've ended up un/underemployed because I can't negotiate well the social aspects of working. I have few friends - women who are more acquaintances than deep and meaningful with me, and unconventional women who share some of the same world views with me. I don't think my family know where I came from...

    PS Fe comes out all or nothing in wildly inappropriate ways. It's not something I can really manage, besides trying not to get into stressful situations in the first place....

  8. #98
    Senior Member milkyway2's Avatar
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    Default inferior fe

    I experience my inferior fe when I get in a fight with my boyfriend. It's pretty much the only time I ever do feel feelings since I don't like feelings that much, and I tend to just bottle them up until we get in a fight and they all come out at once. What always happens is he'll be upset about something and he'll be acting like an asshole all day and being rude to me for no reason. So eventually I will get upset and sad and start thinking about why he's upset instead of just asking. But I don't want to get upset and start crying (because i allllllways cry when i'm sad) so I sit there trying to make myself stop being upset and thinking, my mind going in circles.. So I try to analyze my emotions and stop them from coming all at once, but it doesn't help because they still come. But then when I am feeling sad I feel like I lose all ability of rational thought and I just want to go away and cry until I don't feel sad anymore because I can't think straight. So then when we are fighting it's just him saying things like "you dont make any sense!" and "why are you crying when im the upset one!" and me trying to figure out and tell him why I am upset. So pretty much my it just confuses me and complicates things in relationships.

  9. #99
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Well I'm good at "getting along" and disarming people - when I want - but I think this would be Ne not Fe.

    I would say I experience Fe as a feeling inmy stomach which I can't explain at first, which will then pour out uncontrollably after a sufficient storing up period.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

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