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View Poll Results: How do you process them?

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  • N-Dominant NT, believe I process values/feelings concretely

    1 5.00%
  • N-Dominant NT, believe I process values/feelings abstractly

    10 50.00%
  • T-Dominant NT, believe I process values/feelings concretely

    1 5.00%
  • T-Dominant NT, believe I process values/feelings abstractly

    6 30.00%
  • Other (please explain)

    2 10.00%
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  1. #21
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    I hate to say it, but the fact that you don't understand your feelings well enough to respond hints at what I had suggested previously... that you end up responding to your emotions in a raw, instinctive SF-ish way that you don't consciously understand when you're really responding to them, and the rest of the time you're analyzing them. You may even misunderstand your reasons for valuing something because of your tendency to apply a pattern after the fact.

    Although it is clear that especially with Ni users, some kind of conceptual emotion gets evoked. Which means NTs do engage in NF processing, though it's not clear whether this processing is related to their actual feelings and values.

  2. #22
    Senior Member BlahBlahNounBlah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Hmm... it could easily be, actually. Especially if there was a concrete element in it that drew you, or something special about the circumstances in which you first heard it.

    Even though I don't usually like poetry, this has always touched me deeply:


    Bluebird
    Charles Bukowski

    there's a bluebird in my heart that
    wants to get out
    but I'm too tough for him,
    I say, stay in there, I'm not going
    to let anybody see
    you.

    there's a bluebird in my heart that
    wants to get out
    but I pur whiskey on him and inhale
    cigarette smoke
    and the whores and the bartenders
    and the grocery clerks
    never know that
    he's
    in there.

    there's a bluebird in my heart that
    wants to get out
    but I'm too tough for him,
    I say,
    stay down, do you want to mess
    me up?
    you want to screw up the
    works?
    you want to blow my book sales in
    Europe?

    there's a bluebird in my heart that
    wants to get out
    but I'm too clever, I only let him out
    at night sometimes
    when everybody's asleep.
    I say, I know that you're there,
    so don't be
    sad.
    then I put him back,
    but he's singing a little
    in there, I haven't quite let him
    die
    and we sleep together like
    that
    with our
    secret pact
    and it's nice enough to
    make a man
    weep, but I don't
    weep, do
    you?

  3. #23
    Senior Member Two Point Two's Avatar
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    Also, I was wondering - You began by saying that maybe NTs, particularly T-dom NTs, process F in an S fashion. Do you intend this to be, potentially, a general principle according to which NFs (particularly F-doms) process T in an S fashion, maybe NTs that are N dom process S in an F fashion, N-dom NFs process S in a T fashion, S-dom STs process F in an N fashion...(etc.)?

    Sort of...if you N your T, you therefore are likely to S your F (unless N-ing is your main thing)?

  4. #24
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlahBlahNounBlah View Post
    Even though I don't usually like poetry, this has always touched me deeply:


    Bluebird
    Charles Bukowski

    there's a bluebird in my heart that
    wants to get out
    but I'm too tough for him,
    I say, stay in there, I'm not going
    to let anybody see
    you.

    there's a bluebird in my heart that
    wants to get out
    but I pur whiskey on him and inhale
    cigarette smoke
    and the whores and the bartenders
    and the grocery clerks
    never know that
    he's
    in there.

    there's a bluebird in my heart that
    wants to get out
    but I'm too tough for him,
    I say,
    stay down, do you want to mess
    me up?
    you want to screw up the
    works?
    you want to blow my book sales in
    Europe?

    there's a bluebird in my heart that
    wants to get out
    but I'm too clever, I only let him out
    at night sometimes
    when everybody's asleep.
    I say, I know that you're there,
    so don't be
    sad.
    then I put him back,
    but he's singing a little
    in there, I haven't quite let him
    die
    and we sleep together like
    that
    with our
    secret pact
    and it's nice enough to
    make a man
    weep, but I don't
    weep, do
    you?
    Concrete. Definitely concrete. As far as I can tell, you just gave me a list of facts:

    1. There's a bluebird trapped in someone's heart. The heart is being used to refer to emotion here, though it technically only pumps blood, and because if there were actually one in there, neither it nor the person would survive. This is probably a metaphor for someone being afraid to express their deepest feelings.

    2. He pours alcohol and cigarettes on it, and doesn't tell people. Well, you don't want people to know you abuse animals, but that's beside the point. It probably means that the person uses alcohol and cigarettes as crutches to soothe their feelings temporarily rather than channeling them in a more constructive manner.

    3. Overall, the person is afraid that revealing these emotions would lead to their ruin and downfall, thus they hide them. Which makes sense, I suppose. They also think that this denial makes them intelligent, which is true if the prediction that expressing these emotions would lead to their downfall is correct.

    I know it was supposed to mean something, but I totally don't get it. This is exactly the kind of thing I miss all the time.

    Essentially, all I got from it was that we have a person who is afraid to show their feelings for fear of the consequences, and tries to fill the void with substance abuse.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Two Point Two's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I hate to say it, but the fact that you don't understand your feelings well enough to respond hints at what I had suggested previously... that you end up responding to your emotions in a raw, instinctive SF-ish way that you don't consciously understand when you're really responding to them, and the rest of the time you're analyzing them. You may even misunderstand your reasons for valuing something because of your tendency to apply a pattern after the fact.
    I'm still mixed up about whether you're talking about having emotions as a result of abstract things (emotions in response to ideas, theoretical understanding of a situation, interpretation, foreseen implications, etc.), or whether you're talking about abstracting based on your emotions (contemplating your emotional responses to things, formulating theories to explain them, symbolising them in poetry, etc.). I do both; the former is innate and just a part of those theories and ideas and whatnot, while the latter is something that I do but am admittedly not as proficient with (and in particular, for example, I dislike much emotional encoding in symbolism - e.g. poetry).

    Although it is clear that especially with Ni users, some kind of conceptual emotion gets evoked. Which means NTs do engage in NF processing, though it's not clear whether this processing is related to their actual feelings and values.
    It is.

    For example, stories about AI, and the notion of AI, often make me incredibly sad. I love such stories, and I contemplate AI quite a bit, but the reason they make me sad is because of the horrific potential I perceive for harm, and the value I place on consciousness, on conscious entities being allowed to pursue their ends as they see fit. There are few things sadder than a living or pseudo-living thing being snuffed out because someone didn't realise they were in there.

    Now, the emotions I associate with AI all come from theory and concept and imagination, and yet they're also very much tied into the emotional and moral associations I have more generally.

  6. #26
    Senior Member BlahBlahNounBlah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Concrete. Definitely concrete. As far as I can tell, you just gave me a list of facts:

    1. There's a bluebird trapped in someone's heart. The heart is being used to refer to emotion here, though it technically only pumps blood, and because if there were actually one in there, neither it nor the person would survive. This is probably a metaphor for someone being afraid to express their deepest feelings.

    2. He pours alcohol and cigarettes on it, and doesn't tell people. Well, you don't want people to know you abuse animals, but that's beside the point. It probably means that the person uses alcohol and cigarettes as crutches to soothe their feelings temporarily rather than channeling them in a more constructive manner.

    3. Overall, the person is afraid that revealing these emotions would lead to their ruin and downfall, thus they hide them. Which makes sense, I suppose. They also think that this denial makes them intelligent, which is true if the prediction that expressing these emotions would lead to their downfall is correct.

    I know it was supposed to mean something, but I totally don't get it. This is exactly the kind of thing I miss all the time.

    Essentially, all I got from it was that we have a person who is afraid to show their feelings for fear of the consequences, and tries to fill the void with substance abuse.

    Okay. This makes more sense now:

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I seem to end up processing concrete reality in a ridiculously impersonal and cold way that strips it of personal meaning.

  7. #27
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Two Point Two View Post
    Sort of...if you N your T, you therefore are likely to S your F (unless N-ing is your main thing)?
    For some reason, this makes me giggle.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  8. #28
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Two Point Two View Post
    I'm still mixed up about whether you're talking about having emotions as a result of abstract things (emotions in response to ideas, theoretical understanding of a situation, interpretation, foreseen implications, etc.), or whether you're talking about abstracting based on your emotions (contemplating your emotional responses to things, formulating theories to explain them, symbolising them in poetry, etc.). I do both; the former is innate and just a part of those theories and ideas and whatnot, while the latter is something that I do but am admittedly not as proficient with (and in particular, for example, I dislike much emotional encoding in symbolism - e.g. poetry).
    The bolded.
    It is.

    For example, stories about AI, and the notion of AI, often make me incredibly sad. I love such stories, and I contemplate AI quite a bit, but the reason they make me sad is because of the horrific potential I perceive for harm, and the value I place on consciousness, on conscious entities being allowed to pursue their ends as they see fit. There are few things sadder than a living or pseudo-living thing being snuffed out because someone didn't realise they were in there.

    Now, the emotions I associate with AI all come from theory and concept and imagination, and yet they're also very much tied into the emotional and moral associations I have more generally.
    Those stories generally make me happy, not sad, because it means we'll eventually expand our definition of sentience to include something other than natural life. It means we'll be pushing the envelope and possibly reaching a point where we can improve on ourselves, create new beings, and I just see all this... potential.

  9. #29
    Senior Member BlahBlahNounBlah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    For some reason, this makes me giggle.

    I know the reason!

  10. #30
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Two Point Two View Post
    Also, I was wondering - You began by saying that maybe NTs, particularly T-dom NTs, process F in an S fashion. Do you intend this to be, potentially, a general principle according to which NFs (particularly F-doms) process T in an S fashion, maybe NTs that are N dom process S in an F fashion, N-dom NFs process S in a T fashion, S-dom STs process F in an N fashion...(etc.)?

    Sort of...if you N your T, you therefore are likely to S your F (unless N-ing is your main thing)?
    Oh, yeah, that was the general principle. You figured it out!

    The entire legend would look like this:

    F-dominant NFs: Tend to process feelings in an NF manner, and logic in an ST manner.

    N-dominant NFs: Tend to process feelings in an NF manner, and may express logic in an ST or NT manner.

    T-dominant NTs: Tend to process logic in an NT manner, and feelings in an SF manner.

    N-dominant NTs: Tend to process logic in an NT manner, and may express feelings in either an SF or NF manner.

    T-dominant STs: Tend to process logic in an ST manner, and feelings in an NF manner.

    S-dominant STs: Tend to process logic in an ST manner, and may express feelings in either an NF or SF manner.

    F-dominant SFs: Tend to process feelings in an SF manner, and logic in an NT manner.

    S-dominant SFs: Tend to process feelings in an SF manner, and may express logic in either an NT or ST manner.

    Basically, the theory is that perception dominant types are less naturally confined in the domains they can use their dominant function in.

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