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  1. #51
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    whispering in others ears ? Girl that's what I dread the most in people
    Me too.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lily Bart View Post
    ENTP's ARE the most manipulative of the types. They claim they aren't because they don't have a well-developed F, so they have no idea that there's any alternative. It's like a game to them. They read people easily and then they give them exactly what they expect. People love them for this. But ENTP's are not really giving types ultimately. This is what gets them labelled manipulative. They seem to be giving you everything you want on the outside, but on the inside? They're out for themselves. And I write all of this with great respect for ENTP's. There are other, much stronger facets to ENTP's, but way too much of the time this superficiality is all that people see.
    ENTP's would be good manipulators, but I bet they would convince themselves that it was not manipulation and that it was justified to protect themselves. I don't know that it is really about thinking of it as a game. I think ENTP's are very concerned with protecting themselves from being hurt so they could distort things to maintain this defense. Ironically, this defensiveness and insecurity can lead to greater suffering.

    For me personally, I feel like I have two natures. One is big and generous and kind and selfless and light. The other is small and frightened and selfish and dark. The other is the one I am suspicious of. I could see myself manipulating someone if I felt exposed and in danger. I wouldn't enjoy it, but it would seem necessary. I think ENTP's are survivalists. I struggle with unlearning this fear.
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

  3. #53
    Senior Member epp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ilovetrannies View Post
    SO. FUCKING. EASY. At hurting people? What the Fuck?
    I said it's extremely easy to READ people, to see through their motifs, driving emotions and values. people are like automates and they are not even aware of it themselves. THIS is what I hate.

    so I'd suggest ilovetrannies a school. first grade or whichever grade it is you actually learn to read in your country (I personally did at the age of three but it seems like you never did). after that come back and try again reading and answering. it didn't go so well this time, I'm afraid... but you can always improve!

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by thisGuy View Post
    how the hell? ive never successfully been able to manipulate anybody on purpose. actions that might seem manipulative to an audience might have taken place, but the persons involved know exactly whats going on and they do not feel manipulated (or do you?). i sure as hell dont feel 'crafty' cuz i 'manipulated' them. explanation is as follows

    from observation i know that im sincere till the subject of my attention diverges away from my focus/heading...like we hit a fork in the road. i go one way, the other person goes the other way. thats when i stop taking the initiative to make them the subject of my attention. i still go out of my way to help them when they need it

    management science calls that conserving your resources. behavioural psychology would call that healthy in that it is putting an end to idling your mind on something/someone that doesn't need that attention anymore. social norms apparently calls that being manipulative
    how the fuck is that being manipulative

    ------a possible explanation
    i think people take us for being manipulative cuz we (i) can tell exactly what people's intentions and even motivations are. in order to be manipulative, one needs leverage. ENTPs are in the know of that leverage and therefore assumed to be manipulative.
    so in essence, you just want us to fit in with your framework which is founded on YOUR intelligence and understanding. understanding which doesn't usually include knowing about other people's intentions. so when you DO find about people's motivations, you put that kind of information on the pedestal and try to take full advantage. since ENTPs usually already know that information, you assume that they too put it on the pedestal and take full advantage...dont you
    We're considered manipulative because we often know what people are thinking before they do, and respond accordingly. It's not my fault that I can talk people in to believing things were their idea in the first place.
    “No friend ever served me, and no enemy ever wronged me, whom I have not repaid in full." Lucius Cornelius Sulla

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by epp View Post
    I said it's extremely easy to READ people, to see through their motifs, driving emotions and values. people are like automates and they are not even aware of it themselves. THIS is what I hate.

    so I'd suggest ilovetrannies a school. first grade or whichever grade it is you actually learn to read in your country (I personally did at the age of three but it seems like you never did). after that come back and try again reading and answering. it didn't go so well this time, I'm afraid... but you can always improve!
    Most people and their motives and desires read like a comic book.......they THINK it's actually War and Peace......that's where their perception of ENTP manipulation comes from.
    “No friend ever served me, and no enemy ever wronged me, whom I have not repaid in full." Lucius Cornelius Sulla

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synarch View Post
    ENTP's would be good manipulators, but I bet they would convince themselves that it was not manipulation and that it was justified to protect themselves. I don't know that it is really about thinking of it as a game. I think ENTP's are very concerned with protecting themselves from being hurt so they could distort things to maintain this defense. Ironically, this defensiveness and insecurity can lead to greater suffering.

    For me personally, I feel like I have two natures. One is big and generous and kind and selfless and light. The other is small and frightened and selfish and dark. The other is the one I am suspicious of. I could see myself manipulating someone if I felt exposed and in danger. I wouldn't enjoy it, but it would seem necessary. I think ENTP's are survivalists. I struggle with unlearning this fear.
    I think you hit the nail on the head. I don't manipulate people for personal gain. I DO on occasion gently nudge them in a direction I feel is best for all parties involved, and convince them it's their idea.

    When attacked, however, we'll intentionally manipulate those around us in mobilization against a 'common' threat (i.e. any threat to US becomes a threat to the GROUP before we are done).

    Even then, though, since we see life as a bit of a game, we figure if we're going to have to do it anyway, we might as well have fun doing it.

    I studied Machiavelli, Sun Tzu and the 48 Laws of Power not because I wanted to use them, but because I wanted them if I NEEDED to use them.
    “No friend ever served me, and no enemy ever wronged me, whom I have not repaid in full." Lucius Cornelius Sulla

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I think ENTPs are potentially manipulative, at least compared to most other NTs. But I prefer manipulative people, so I consider that a good thing.

    A manipulative person wants to be thought well of, or at least clearly wants something from others... and to me, that's a positive thing, a human thing. People who don't care enough about how they're thought of by others to attempt to influence it to some degree are the ones that truly disgust and frighten me.
    You make a good point.
    “No friend ever served me, and no enemy ever wronged me, whom I have not repaid in full." Lucius Cornelius Sulla

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by SerengetiBetty View Post
    i think people get upset by us being manipulative because they get entangled in some plan (ie manipulation) we have that gets halted in the middle because we lose interest.
    Uhmmmm......yeah, I think you're right. Generally when our plans actually make it to fruition, many of them are beneficial in some way to the manipulated.
    “No friend ever served me, and no enemy ever wronged me, whom I have not repaid in full." Lucius Cornelius Sulla

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    I think ENTP's are socally manipulative not directly...

    They will create a collective opinion by wispering in other ears... rather than manpulate directly - some of them are less consious that they are doing it..

    Other NTs can be more manpiulative directly
    In the long run indirect manipulation is the most successful.........it gets others mobilized........it's like a snowball effect.

    Law 43

    Work on the Hearts and Minds of Others

    Coercion creates a reaction that will eventually work against you. You must seduce others into wanting to move in your direction. A person you have seduced becomes your loyal pawn. And the way to seduce others is to operate on their individual psychologies and weaknesses. Soften up the resistant by working on their emotions, playing on what they hold dear and what they fear. Ignore the hearts and minds of others and they will grow to hate you.
    “No friend ever served me, and no enemy ever wronged me, whom I have not repaid in full." Lucius Cornelius Sulla

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by epp View Post
    I CAN be manipulative, I'm actually very good at it, but I hate it.

    I don't do emotional manipulation (meaning crying or getting on other person's nerves to get what I want), no. it's more like... for some reason I can really see "through" most people, as people are so easy to read and most of them are very VERY automatic indeed. they behave in certain patterns, they blab about themselves all the time - and they are not even aware of it themselves!!!

    it actually takes only half an hour max to see what makes them tick, what are their weak spots etc. so basically it's possible to manipulate people by "clicking" only so very lightly on those... needs and emotions.

    e.g. when someone's basic and first need is to feel important then my manipulation would be to hint only very lightly and very calmly that i don't really admit their superiority... and stick to it (this is the important part!)

    there is absolutely no need to do anything more as given person will do anything to prove that he IS important and should be respected. and he WILL continue, going to extremes and be ridiculous...

    until he realizes that himself
    and understands that BY making himself so ridiculous he himself has actually PROVEN to me that he really can't be respected...

    after that he will do anything you ask and/or run when he sees so much as your shadow. but he will never ever try to f... with you again...

    it's like a front-row ticket to a circus... watch and learn how a human being is going to make a complete and utter fool of himself.

    beauty!

    I only do something like that when someone has really done me wrong (e.g. my former boss who wasn't going to pay me the money I had earned honestly!!!)
    I really really hate it because I hate to see that people are so EASY to read. I hate that I know exactly how to hurt someone.
    I hate that I don't even have to strain myself to do something like that. it's just SO. FUCKING. EASY. it's not even funny!!!

    I've also realized that's the main reason why I haven't really wanted to live with any guy so far... because I've seen them through and I have known I COULD manipulate them any time... and that's not equity...

    and I'm sure now that's the main reason I fell in love with an ENTJ, a very mature one - it's impossible to move him any way I want, I can't even do the typical female nagging-thing. it just doesn't work on him

    (recently I've come to the conclusion nagging must come with XX chromosomes as EVERY single woman I know, even the most rational and mature one has admitted to at least TRYING to do it... a INTJ friend of mine who just got 39 recently described me that... I was like "ET TU!!!" and she said "yea, well, seems like I am a woman after all... took me 39 years to realize but better late than never")

    sure he has his weak spots, everyone does, me too, I've demonstrated you at least two of them in this post, but the difference is - he is AWARE of those. therefore I can't "click" on those! he's not automatic!
    Bingo!

    Law 33

    Discover Each Man’s Thumbscrew

    Everyone has a weakness, a gap in the castle wall. That weakness is usually an insecurity, an uncontrollable emotion or need; it can also be a small secret pleasure. Either way, once found, it is a thumbscrew you can turn to your advantage.
    “No friend ever served me, and no enemy ever wronged me, whom I have not repaid in full." Lucius Cornelius Sulla

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