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  1. #201
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaptorWizard View Post
    According to the INTJ forum debate of INTPs Vs. INTJs, INTPs are the ones who argue theoretical ideas and INTJs are the ones who seek a practical application. After all, the INTP philosopher stereotype seems to be more idea oriented than the INTJ scientist stereotype of experimentation.

    I would like somebody to prove this wrong with empirical evidence.
    This makes me giggle, because, you know, mbti itself doesn't currently stand on a solid foundation of empirical evidence and rigid metrics.
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  2. #202
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    This makes me giggle, because, you know, mbti itself doesn't currently stand on a solid foundation of empirical evidence and rigid metrics.
    Even better: It is impossible to prove it either way.

    You say: INTJs like X, INTPs like Y. Then you test people and some like X and some like Y. How can you decide whether INTJs like X or Y if your definition of an INTJ is that he likes X? You cannot. You end where you began. One might say that liking X is not the only thing that makes an INTJ, but all those other things are just other 'likes X' problems. And what you are asking in this case is whether people who like X really do like X.

    A better question is: Do people who like X also like A, B, and C? The names are irrelevant.

  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Even better: It is impossible to prove it either way.

    You say: INTJs like X, INTPs like Y. Then you test people and some like X and some like Y. How can you decide whether INTJs like X or Y if your definition of an INTJ is that he likes X? You cannot. You end where you began. One might say that liking X is not the only thing that makes an INTJ, but all those other things are just other 'likes X' problems. And what you are asking in this case is whether people who like X really do like X.

    A better question is: Do people who like X also like A, B, and C? The names are irrelevant.
    This is exactly my sentiment. The problem is that the categorizations and predictions are flippin' circular; it's a positive feedback loop.

    The measures that come closest to objectivity are the MBTI test itself, experts' assessments, and Dario's preliminary neuroscientific work. Pick your poison.

  4. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaptorWizard View Post
    According to the INTJ forum debate of INTPs Vs. INTJs, INTPs are the ones who argue theoretical ideas and INTJs are the ones who seek a practical application. After all, the INTP philosopher stereotype seems to be more idea oriented than the INTJ scientist stereotype of experimentation.

    I would like somebody to prove this wrong with empirical evidence.

    Also where do ISTPs come into play in this argument, because not only do a lot of INTPs identify with INTJs, but a lot of INTPs (including myself) also identify with ISTP!
    Well mind you, theory and philosophy vs planning and practical application are home to both styles of cognition. The difference is one aspect is hobby/information and the other is career work. Not all INTx will be driven into a career right away, yet both can learn to engage fully in philosophy, scientific work, mathematics, which ties into music, engineering, art, or anything taking their interest. Ti types often pack rather particular knowledge and specifications about subjects they like and Ni types will follow their intuition and visions reflecting on themselves more universally, however "productivity" and "immediate results" are not really popular focuses of a lot of Ns (despite it saying this in 'theory' about half of the types.) This doesn't mean Ti consistently equates to stereotypical P behavior of Keirsey types; they will always be Ti even after growing used to the structure and action in their household and early lifestyle. INTx can be flexible or rigid; they are introverts and individualists most of all. The 'leader' stereotype is more Keirsey writing, and 'mastermind' is more of some ideal portrait, like mad scientist and brainiac. Some rare INTx might find being a leader and performer a suiting lifestyle but most don't. I would say the most realistic difference in focus on careers and thought patterns is more a personal introverted sense of NT vs TN. One always uses Ni the other always uses Ti, they always find trouble going against their main function but can ignore their second one and use it selectively.

    As far as sources, well there is Jung Psychological Types that describes in detail some thought processes and complications he witnessed. There are lot of outside sources being gathered from experience. There is no real 'scientific' source; it is all theory and empiricism. Even MBTI testing and JCF testing is considered to be unreliable despite its ease and popularity. I consider P/J testing unreliable even in sensor types---it doesn't consider 1/2 of someone's cognition and assumes on premise that the other half is always right. There is really no logical basis for it and it's Keirseyan.

  5. #205
    Was E.laur Laurie's Avatar
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    I think INTP and INFP are very similar.

    I'm serious.

    INTP = you can't know the depth of my thoughts
    INFP = you can't know the depth of my feelings.

    I don't have an on topic post.

  6. #206
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    Haha i know a fat guy who i believe is an INTP, a good friend of mine is an INTJ and they just more efficient due to the fact that they can make quicker judgements rather than percieving types who are extremely indecisive do to the fact that they see such a multitude of possibilities. i definately see the obscurity between the 2 though that people have, one guy up there listed brian griffin aas an INTJ where as i've heard of the liberal leftist weed smoker as the INTP type and have seen other websites label him as such. but at the same time people constantly label Sherlock holmes as either INTJ or INTP, personally i can see reasons why he could be both due to his brilliant perception he is renown for, but at the same time he is very efficent and accurate in the decisions(judgements) he does make. so the INTJ INTP is definately an interesting debate when trying to type individuals who seem to fit the type. as for myself its obvious to see where my own indecisive perception dominates my personality over judging

  7. #207
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    The interesting thing about perception and judgement is neither is more decisive than the other. You can spend a while judging and calculating lots of angles to reach a bigger conclusion, or you can receive immediate perceptions that lead to personal certitude without using logic. The thing about being an N though is we're not looking for immediate practicality, we're searching the bigger picture, so almost all greater ideas take time to learn. Intuition isn't something to use in order to interact with the immediate environment, as much as we find it helps at times; it backs into the shadows of the environment and interaction, takes what little it saw and gives birth to new irrational images.

    As far as Brian Griffin as INTJ, I definitely see him as one of my own Ni imbued types, than approaching and calculating everything with Ti. His in-between thinking and feeling is subject to all the intuitive insights he has so often. His character sometimes overplays his Se inferior tendency as well; INxJs are usually noticeably more unaware and spacey, lack physical control and don't pay much attention to what's going on in the immediate environment, where it's more common of INTPs to center on something particular ie. technical that they can demonstrate common sense about, and Brian seems to get annoyed by and indifferent to those kinds of things. In Keirsey typology I would imagine him as INTP, but almost all INTx are INTP in Keirsey.

  8. #208
    yap yap yap xenaprincess's Avatar
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    re Sherlock Holmes, he's not making judgements per se. He is using deductive reasoning, which is not the same as judging (unless he's looking down his nose at the stupid folk). His thought process is neutral, like making an assessment. So Sherlock would be an INTP.

    It's very easy to make generalizations and fall into stereotypes (I do it, too). The thing is, how do you really know how that person perceives the world or thinks, unless you're that person or you've given the MBTI test to that person? You can't really be certain.

  9. #209
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    There are so many pages on this, I'll try to say something new since I have male friends matching your types. Looking THEM apart from what mbti says on it in theory, although it's not different, I can say

    INTJ - more uptight, more in control, more in the future, more planning going on. Sense of humor is different , very little facial expression, cracking jokes with poker face on. Seem more lost in interpersonal relationships, not preoccupied with socializing. Usually more successful in education and carrier. More reliable and predictable. Very smart but can be boring and cold representing it.

    INTP- warmer and more casual approach to everything. Hilarious and playful. Not really carring about carrier as long as they have something important to them going on. Their hobbies are pretty weird which is great, often they don't make sense but it doesn't matter. More in tune with their emotions. Usually have more friends, yet still it is just few. I feel at ease with them while not knowing what's going to happen next. Personally, I find them ingenious and very loyal too but in a more fun and interesting way.

  10. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elaur View Post
    I think INTP and INFP are very similar.

    I'm serious.

    INTP = you can't know the depth of my thoughts
    INFP = you can't know the depth of my feelings.

    I don't have an on topic post.
    Yes, very true. The one person that I found that I relate to the most, as an INTP, was an INFP. INFPs aren't nearly as logical, but they have the cognitive preference to see the larger picture (Ne).

    EDIT: Although, with some consideration, I think ENTP and INTP are closer. The only difference is that the ENTP has a dominate Ne / aux Ti, compared to dominate Ti / aux Ne. INFP/INTP sort of reside in the same space, but ENTP/INTP operate in a more similar manner.


    As an INTP, compared to an INTJ, when learning new things I'll always look to see where the new points fit with everything else. Generally I'll bounce around from one topic to another to see sort of fill in the picture holographically rather than a straight forward method that an INTJ will take.
    Last edited by Rel; 05-14-2012 at 08:54 PM.

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