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Thread: INTP lies

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fife View Post
    The INTPs I know closely (my Mum and sister) would never lie exactly. Even when pressed they will tell the exact truth in a way that can be interpreted in several ways. Or leave out some information. The words themselves will be truth though.
    I agree INTP's do not lie most of the time unless it is necessary. Like to the police. I personally find it hard if not impossible to lie straight out to ppl I like or love. What you may be perceiving as dishonesty is possibly honesty at its worst. We like to be very accurate and most other types do not put so much emphasis on accuracy. So the honest to Gods truth may not come out as fluently as someone else lie.

    btw check out socionics site on relations it may be of help.

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    I think Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series really fucked with how I looked at truth, due to a certain group of people who were unable to tell a lie.

    They just spoke so vaguely and "lied" by omission (read: misled) that very few people trusted them. What was even more awesome was how gracefully they'd dodge direct questions.

    I don't like to tell lies (unless if I'm joking, which I don't really count as lies because they aren't malicious,) but if I have to lie, I'll try to lie with an omission of the truth. If that's not possible, it'll be a white lie. If it can be neither, I'll just make up a believable one.
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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blank View Post
    I think Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series really fucked with how I looked at truth, due to a certain group of people who were unable to tell a lie.

    They just spoke so vaguely and "lied" by omission (read: misled) that very few people trusted them. What was even more awesome was how gracefully they'd dodge direct questions.

    I don't like to tell lies (unless if I'm joking, which I don't really count as lies because they aren't malicious,) but if I have to lie, I'll try to lie with an omission of the truth. If that's not possible, it'll be a white lie. If it can be neither, I'll just make up a believable one.
    Lying by omission is still lying.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    Lying by omission is still lying.
    Grammatically correct, if not redundant.

    Lying, "by any means", is still technically lying unless there is such a thing as "lying by telling the truth".

    "Omissions of the truth" however is not always lying. For example, a person could not get another person to shut up if the truth required full disclosure.

    i.e.
    Question: what do you like to do
    Answer: I like to read books

    EDIT: Conclusion the fact that this person likes to do a lot of other things, perhaps including skydiving naked, does not make this answer false as long as they also like to read.

    A more precise term for the "lying by omission" that INTP may tend to engage in, if necessary or very convenient, is being "over literal" in telling the truth. In other words knowing what truth the questioner wants to hear yet limiting the scope of the answer/truth to parameters of the question.
    Last edited by Vizconde; 11-03-2009 at 10:50 AM. Reason: didn't finish
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by spamtar View Post
    Omission of the truth however is not always lying. For example, a person could not get another person to shut up if the truth required full disclosure.

    i.e.
    Question: what do you like to do
    Answer: I like to read books
    True.

    The issue here, though, is when you know what information the other person is expecting from you or the sort of answer they desire and you specifically choose to provide an answer that is misleading in its brevity or that avoids the area you wish to not discuss, so that they think they've gotten the answer they want but haven't.

    Quote Originally Posted by GatorGirl View Post
    "I don't think you really love me"
    "Are you sure you aren't like this with every guy you date"

    eg while not so good times
    "are you sure you miss me or do you miss the idea of us?"
    He sounds like he didn't trust the emotional aspects of the relationship.

    For some reason, he was also feeling interchangeable... like you wanted him as a placeholder rather than as himself.

    Can't tell you why he felt this or whether it was even close to true.

    It was really strange... he went off one night when we went on vacation. He knew he was going to get called away for training soon. and he went off about how much he loved me and wanted to marry me and I was perfect and it scared him, (he was a bit drunk)

    then about a week later when we got back, we were at dinner and he just threw out there "will you marry me?" I could tell he wasn't "really" proposing for reasons other than he had no ring. I just looked at him, and very earnestly said "don't do that unless you are serious, it toys with my heart."

    He went on to sa it was just a test. Well, I had obviously not passed the test. Then things spiraled down the next week rapidly... I don't know, that is when the weirdness started, If I keep going it will be way too long and too much detail
    Some people have ripped on the guy and maybe he deserves it. But there's also the possibility he's relationally inept and sucks at expressing his emotions. I mean, think about INTPs and what they're good and bad at and what this situation is:

    - He's feeling strong emotions and doesn't know how to process them, and so he's scared to death.
    - He's going away for basic training, if he doesn't make a decision now he might never get another chance, either you might find someone else while he's gone or he might never come back.
    - He keeps testing you, asking you if you love him, etc. That's actually for an introverted type a sign of SOME investment... an INTP who doesn't care wouldn't even think to ask, but obviously he's invested in your answer and it's throwing him off to want something he thinks he could lose. If he didn't want it, he wouldn't care at all.
    - He sucks at relational stuff. He sucks at relational stuff. He sucks at relational stuff. Do you imagine he might have been sincere about the ring but just screwed up the delivery big-time...? Acting impulsively? Because he didn't know what to do? It sounds just like what a dumb-ass-impulsive INTP might do if he didn't know what to do. Your answer was honest and as a mature adult he should have been able to parse it correctly... but it didn't mesh with where he was potentially coming from and chances are he took it wrongly... as you see his stupid stupid excuse of "it was only a test." That's just the sort of stupid cover-up remark a relational neophyte would make, to hide his embarrassment and feelings of rejection. I wouldn't be surprised if THAT comment by him was the lie...

    Yeah. He would definitely be the kind of person to not realize the emotional aspect of it, but we had discussions before in which I admitted to wanting to marry him.
    That sort of thing is why I can't give you an answer, only possibilities. I would have to understand the context of the whole situation (with knowledge of those past discussions) to have a better grasp as to what his frame of mind most likely was.

    Anyway... who knows? I think at the least we can agree he was relationally immature; I guess we are more discussing intent here.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    True.

    The issue here, though, is when you know what information the other person is expecting from you or the sort of answer they desire and you specifically choose to provide an answer that is misleading in its brevity or that avoids the area you wish to not discuss, so that they think they've gotten the answer they want but haven't.
    (Sorry Jen I was kinda editing after I posted so I would like to disclose this in all fairness but I think our responses are still on point.)

    Is that the issue? I would say the scope of the issue is debatable.

    If the interogator fails to ask the right question than that is their problem unless the law or higher authority demands a duty of a greater degree of disclosure.

    What you describe appears to me to be more about "full reasonable disclosure" than truth.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Spamtar - a strange combination of boorish drunkeness and erudite discussions, or what I call "an Irish academic"

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    Quote Originally Posted by spamtar View Post
    (Sorry Jen I was kinda editing after I posted so I would like to disclose this in all fairness but I think our responses are still on point.)
    cheater!

    Is that the issue? I would say the scope of the issue is debatable.

    If the interogator fails to ask the right question than that is their problem unless the law or higher authority demands a duty of a greater degree of disclosure.

    What you describe appears to me to be more about "full reasonable disclosure" than truth.
    It's not actually an interrogation (or isn't supposed to be).
    Maybe that's the problem -- INTPs tend to view questioners as interrogators?

    When you're in a relationship, there has to be more disclosure of information in order to build and maintain the connection.

    It might the job of the interrogator or the lawyer or the judge to ask the right questions in a trial, but in a relationship that's not the job of the partner, both people invest and work together to build something. If you view it differently, the relationship will suffer.

    What you describe appears to me to be more about "full reasonable disclosure" than truth.
    yes, that's exactly it, and the fact we can delineate easily between them shows that -- regardless of how someone can feel about it -- we still know what the other person is expecting and instead make a conscious choice to be misleading, whether we think we are justified or not.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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    ^^ as a corollary when it comes to emotions and emotional relationships with INTPs its almost all bets are off as opposed to their general tendency to be truthful. I tend to agree with what Jen has said in this aspect.
    I redact everything I have written or will write on this forum prior to, subsequent with and or after the fact of its writing. For entertainment purposes only and not to be taken seriously nor literally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Spamtar - a strange combination of boorish drunkeness and erudite discussions, or what I call "an Irish academic"

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    Quote Originally Posted by spamtar View Post
    ^^ as a corollary when it comes to emotions and emotional relationships with INTPs its almost all bets are off as opposed to their general tendency to be truthful. I tend to agree with what Jen has said in this aspect.

    I abandoned one reply a few minutes ago because I couldn't get the wording exact enough for my satisfaction, but that's basically it: You see INTPs being very truthful in impersonal matters and framing situations, even it has indirect social ramifications (unless the resulting conflict would drain too much energy), but in relationships you often see them avoiding locking themselves into specific answers and decisions.

    Bottom line, everything is contextual and there is a strong drive to preserve autonomy.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    cheater!

    It's not actually an interrogation (or isn't supposed to be).
    Maybe that's the problem -- INTPs tend to view questioners as interrogators?
    .
    It was an oversight not a tactic. When I cheat I leave no clues (perhaps) ...nor make any materially detrimental admissions.

    "Maybe that's the problem -- INTPs tend to view questioners as interrogators?"

    ...but sometimes they are right that relationship questions are posed in a manner similar to interrogations. They are probably more often less right than not in this area (or under the totality of the circumstances on what distinguishes a healthy question in a relationship and an interrogation) but not much is needed to get their back up again.
    I redact everything I have written or will write on this forum prior to, subsequent with and or after the fact of its writing. For entertainment purposes only and not to be taken seriously nor literally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Spamtar - a strange combination of boorish drunkeness and erudite discussions, or what I call "an Irish academic"

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