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[MBTI General] Love doesn't equal attachment?

substitute

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Love, care, fondness - for anything or anyone. I'm sure we all feel it in a dozen shades and ways.

To suggest that someone doesn't love their own child, for example, or their spouse or mother, would be a very harsh and extreme thing to say.

But attachment?

Do you feel attached to the things and people you love? Is it the same thing?

It's assumed to be, for sure, by a lot of people. It's even looked for and pointed to as evidence of love and care, or lack of it. I believe this could be at the root of why T's can be seen as "cold".

I love France, I truly do. But I can survive, being away from it. When my mind wanders to thoughts of France, I smile and feel love and fondness for my country. But I don't feel devastated or anything that I'm not there. I don't cry. I don't move mountains to get to be there all the time. And in fact, I rarely do think about it.

I love my children, I truly do. But if they go to stay with grandma for however long, I don't really miss them. Occasionally I think of them and I smile and feel love for them. But I don't mope or pine for them, and I don't feel the need to call them up on the phone. When they come back, I'm pleased to see them, but I didn't feel like I couldn't live or anything when they weren't here, and in fact I rarely thought about them at all.

I'm quite attached to my car. I've been to some awesome places in it, made lots of repairs to it myself and know it like the back of my hand. I've never thought about replacing it, and if I had to, I'd be sorry to see it go and often wish I could have it back again; it's like an old friend to me. But to say that I love my car, as one loves a daughter or one's country, would be absurd.

I'd die for my children, and I think I would probably die for France, as long as I knew my children would be well cared for. But I wouldn't die for my car. I wouldn't even risk mildly injuring myself to stop it being set on fire.

For me, it seems that love and attachment are not the same thing; they're not connected.

Anyone else feel the same way? Have any other examples or insights into why this might be? Think my examples suck and care to explain why? Have friends or relatives who you suspect might feel this way, and you find it strange or incomprehensible? Or feel the complete opposite way, and care to explain how that works?

I'm just interested in exploring this idea in any way, really.
 

Wild horses

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WOW... i like that you have said what I have often thought or been critised for... I don't think love and attachment are the same thing at all. In fact I think the saying 'to truely love someone is to set them free' is more than wishful thinking! :D
 

substitute

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WOW... i like that you have said what I have often thought or been critised for... I don't think love and attachment are the same thing at all. In fact I think the saying 'to truely love someone is to set them free' is more than wishful thinking! :D

that's really interesting in light of you being an ENFP. i've had some very upsetting set-to's with an ENFP who openly measures a person's love and sincerity by the level of attachment they demonstrate.

that's not why I did this thread by the way lol that was ages ago :D
 

SerengetiBetty

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I agree. I can love and not be attached (ie falling out of touch with a dear friend) and be attached without loving.

It's very easy for me to move on, not necessarily because I didn't love the person but because it's easier for me to detach. For me attachment is mostly formed from spending time with that person. Spending less time with that person just means eventually I'll be less attached to them. But this doesn't mean I no longer care for them.
 

Wild horses

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I think it is partly to do with my background... I have been around very controlling people all of my life... I have seen what attachment does to both the attached and those they attach themselves too... It is destructive as far as I have seen.... My aim is for sacrificial love that puts the other person before myself in all circumstances.. btu I can't see how the pressure of my attachment would do that... It does not empaower and inspire the other person... It puts pressure and expectation... I think also being an ENFP... I have a basic love of freedom and want to give that to others also.
 

substitute

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I agree. I can love and not be attached (ie falling out of touch with a dear friend) and be attached without loving.

It's very easy for me to move on, not necessarily because I didn't love the person but because it's easier for me to detach. For me attachment is mostly formed from spending time with that person. Spending less time with that person just means eventually I'll be less attached to them. But this doesn't mean I no longer care for them.

Do you find that you need to like them to spend time with them, but can still love them without liking them enough yet to spend as much time with them as they might want to?

IOW, have you ever felt like a person was pressuring you to spend more time with them than you really felt comfortable with or wanted to, at that stage of your acquaintance? And/or subsequently been accused of being a fake and not really liking them, because you've not given into the pressure?
 

veins

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One thing that irks me about attachment is the emotional baggage that entails. It can lead to dependence, jealousy, or some other insecurity. Supposing someone had just broken up, having some sort of attachment will only make it more difficult, or more difficult to let go and move on. I do hold onto the notion that love and attachment are separate things. I think that with Buddhism, detachment is one of the paths to Enlightenment. Something to do with acceptance that things can change.
 

nightning

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I think you're onto something there sub. I have an NT friend that describes love in this way... "Love is when you think fondly of something whenever you have a free moment in your life." :) It's a nice description. Very different than attachment.
 

StephMC

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WOW... i like that you have said what I have often thought or been critised for... I don't think love and attachment are the same thing at all. In fact I think the saying 'to truely love someone is to set them free' is more than wishful thinking! :D

You sound very much like a certain ENFP I know. :p He said something very similar to me once


But yes... I definitely agree... love does not equal attachment. I'm pretty sure a lot of people struggle with that concept.
 

substitute

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I can't see how the pressure of my attachment would do that... It does not empaower and inspire the other person... It puts pressure and expectation... I think also being an ENFP... I have a basic love of freedom and want to give that to others also.

Word. Except with a T where you put F :)

I think I might've written elsewhere, when I've seen people complaining that their SO didn't seem as attached to them as they wished, or wouldn't "open up" to them, yield up true intimacy... well, that one way to ensure they never do is to keep putting all this pressure on them to do it! you can't force emotions and attachments, you can't force intimacy, and what tends to happen when people try to force a feeling is that they end up getting more than they bargained for, or the exact opposite!

I know that for me, the experience of spending time around people with Asperger Syndrome has been pretty profound in that I've learned a lot about my own experience of attachment, because of their utter lack of it. I've found that I've attached to them in a way I never have before or since, and I believe that a big part of the reason for that is exactly because I know they expect or desire nothing from me; that although they might sometimes enjoy my company and the things we do together, they don't need it.

I wonder actually if requiring attachment from a loved one as evidence of their love might not be the product of insecurity? I don't mean that in a derogatory way, as I'm insecure myself in some ways, I admit to it and I think everyone is in some way or another. But perhaps there's a particular kind of insecurity that makes you unable to believe someone actually does love you or like you or whatever, so you're always looking for "proof" of it to reassure yourself. And since there's no way to get tangible proof of abstract emotions that happen inside another person's head, I suppose they latch on instead to evidence of attachment: how often do they visit? how often do they call? how much do they NEED my presence?
 

DiscoBiscuit

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WOW... i like that you have said what I have often thought or been critised for... I don't think love and attachment are the same thing at all. In fact I think the saying 'to truely love someone is to set them free' is more than wishful thinking! :D

+1

I've often suffered (if thats even the right word) this problem. It's not that I don't care about or love the person in question, its that my personality doesn't lend itself to pining over people who aren't there. I love my parents beyond measure and I live in the same city as them. Do I talk to them on the phone everyday, or see them once a week? No. Some might think this makes me a bad person but to be honest, the thought doesn't even pop in my head that "Oh I haven't told my parents about the mundane goings on of my life, I better call them." This happens not only with my parents, but with close friends that live far away. Yes I stay in touch, but its not like I'm taking an hour out of every day (or even every week, or month) to catch up with people.

For me to get in touch with someone, be it friend, GF, family, or w/e, there has to be some material purpose to get in contact. This purpose could be "I'm going up to visit my buddy in DC. I better call him and tell him when I'm flying in and to which airport". I'll never txt or call someone just to say hi. I may say I am, but what is usually happening in that situation is that I'm interested in a girl and wanted to ask her out, or take some other step towards creating a relationship, and used getting in touch as an excuse to further that purpose.

This thread I think highlights a misunderstanding between Ts and Fs that may create a lot of hardship. It seems that many people draw a proportional relationship between attachment and love (or the amount you care). For Ts generally, this is simply not the case.

We might not express our love like other types, but when we love someone, they know it through and through.
 

Wild horses

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I don't know.... I mean those around me that put alot of perssure on me as a child and had control and attachement issues were extremely insecure... I'm not trying to say however, that everyone who views love this way is insecure just maybe a coincidence... or epople who view attachment in different ways... To me if I put pressure on someone and attached myself to them it would make me more insecure not less... I would always have in the back of my mind that they were only with me because they felt a sense of duty... or were spinless under my enomous pressure
 

substitute

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in fact, I think I've said in the past as well, that it's exactly because most people have insecurity of one kind or another, that's why the pressure to "match" their attachment level to that of the other person who's requiring it of them only makes them detach more and more.

I don't have the "nobody really likes me, they just humour me" kind of insecurity, but I do have a bit of the "nobody is really committed, they're not truly invested except for what they can get for themselves out of me. If I fail to work out what they want from me and deliver it then they'll be angry at me and blame me for that anger, and then when that happens a few times they'll withdraw their investment and abandon me".

When someone attaches to me more than I do to them, or to a greater level than I can manage in such a time frame or at all, it makes me feel like I'm being set tests and exams all the time that are actually rigged so that I can't help but fail them, and knowing that they'll judge me as a person, as a friend, as a partner or whatever else by the results of these tests, knowing I'll fail them, it makes me feel like I've perceived the selfish nature of their investment in me, I can no longer believe in their love for me, their attachment seems to block them being able to love me because it makes them obsessed with their own need for me to reciprocate it so that they don't see anything else, including any signs of actual genuine love that I might be showing. That makes me distrust them and keep them at arm's length, disliking the pressure and guilt they put me under when around them. It's a vicious circle whereby they achieve the exact opposite of what they say they want.
 

nightning

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So need for attachment = insecurity.

How this goes back to attachment styles in infants... :D
 

substitute

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I don't know.... I mean those around me that put alot of perssure on me as a child and had control and attachement issues were extremely insecure... I'm not trying to say however, that everyone who views love this way is insecure just maybe a coincidence... or epople who view attachment in different ways... To me if I put pressure on someone and attached myself to them it would make me more insecure not less... I would always have in the back of my mind that they were only with me because they felt a sense of duty... or were spinless under my enomous pressure

Where have you been all my life???!!! :laugh:
 

substitute

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+1
Yes I stay in touch, but its not like I'm taking an hour out of every day (or even every week, or month) to catch up with people.

Same here pal. Do you ever have to sit and listen to someone boasting about how dutiful their son/daughter is, that they call them every week and send them cards and stuff like that?

In fact, do you ever suspect that those people who constantly send those sickening, cloying forwarded email messages about love and friendship are actually doing it because it's a quick and easy way for them to fulfill their self-imposed duty of "showing they care" by constantly "contacting" you, even though it's with a cheesy message that if they thought about you for one moment, they'd know you hated, and which moreover they didn't even write themselves? And that in fact, they only clicked the mouse twice and it was thereby sent to everyone in their massively long emailing list, and that you doubt very much that they stopped and thought about each individual person in that list before sending it and dedicated the whole poem sincerely to them? And that you'd have welcomed much more enthusiastically a simple 'hi, how's it going?' from them personally, or just being left alone? :laugh:

Have you ever told such a person how you feel about those messages and asked them to stop sending them, and had them react with anger and hurt and indignation, insisting that they were just showing they cared and feeling like you've rejected them and shown that you hate them now?

For me to get in touch with someone, be it friend, GF, family, or w/e, there has to be some material purpose to get in contact. This purpose could be "I'm going up to visit my buddy in DC. I better call him and tell him when I'm flying in and to which airport". I'll never txt or call someone just to say hi. I may say I am, but what is usually happening in that situation is that I'm interested in a girl and wanted to ask her out, or take some other step towards creating a relationship, and used getting in touch as an excuse to further that purpose.

Ah...the ENTJ mind, ever the strategist :wub:

Yeah, same here. And people say "so you only contact me when you want something? never just to see how I am?" And I'm like "well I assume if you have some important news, you'll contact me, I shouldn't have to keep sending you uninteresting and mundane messages every day on the off chance that you might reply one day with "well, I had a heart attack this morning and am having a triple by-pass this afternoon"! :laugh:

Plus, if I'm texting them for a strategic reason like you mention above, it's exactly because I've arranged to see them and am looking forward to it and want to make sure it's all going according to plan. Or because I really like them and want to get to know them better.

I don't understand how some people can take this as negatively as they do.

We might not express our love like other types, but when we love someone, they know it through and through.

Ah, but do they though? I know I've been accused many times in the past of not loving people that I really do love.

I think you're onto something there sub. I have an NT friend that describes love in this way... "Love is when you think fondly of something whenever you have a free moment in your life." :) It's a nice description. Very different than attachment.

Hmm... at first glance I thought 'yeah, that's spot on'. But then I thought of the people who've given me hell and put me through hard times, who've been a real labour of love themselves lol And i've known the whole time, even when they were at their worst, that I still loved them and had no intention of abandoning them. And even people who've walked away from me in anger after saying a bunch of hurtful and unfair things, I've not been able to stop loving them even when I wanted to. Even though, not being attached, I was relieved to have them out of my life :D I know if they needed me for something, I'd be there without a second thought.

Think for example about teenage kids and how they drive their parents crazy. There are times when they're such little bastards that the parents even start getting desperate thoughts of having them fostered or just getting rid of them somehow cross their minds. C'mon, admit it fellow parents, you know you do! But you know you'd never do it, it's just a desperate thought in the heat of a moment. In reality it doesn't matter how much of a shit they are, you still love them unconditionally and permanently.

Even though it can be that when you think of them, rather than smile, you wish you hadn't thought of them and turn to anything from TV to alcohol to forget them for the time being!! :blush:
 

DiscoBiscuit

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Well, I'll put it this way.

Everyone that I love understands, in no uncertain terms, what their relationship means to me. With my closest friends this usually means that we've had the "I love you man and would take a baseball bat to the face for you" conversation.

With girls, and I can only say I've truly loved one, it is no different. The "one" in question was seeing someone else and moving away (the someone else was where she was moving back to). Before she left, I called her and told her how I felt. I'm not one to get emotional, but I began to cry as I explained to her what she meant to me. I told her all these things in the knowledge that she was leaving, that I might never meet someone who I cared about as much, and that my confession would most likely not influence her to stay. I told her anyway. I felt that, as long as she was happy, no matter who she was with, or where she was, and that she knew how I felt, there was nothing more I could ask. If that isn't love then I'll hang up my heart and never use it again.

My feelings for her still haunt me. And I think about her fondly often. But I've probably only said four words to her since she left.
 

The_Liquid_Laser

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I wish I feel more attached than I do. To me it seems like I am below the minimum.
 
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