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  1. #41
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    Love does not equal attachment. Often, attachment is not healthy, can push people away, and it is risky for both parties (particularly the attached one). You can love someone with all your heart, but never place your heart in their hands.

  2. #42
    Senior Member Saslou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    You can love someone with all your heart, but never place your heart in their hands.
    Its logical .. but how do you do that?

    (Just curious)
    “I made you take time to look at what I saw and when you took time to really notice my flower, you hung all your associations with flowers on my flower and you write about my flower as if I think and see what you think and see—and I don't.”
    ― Georgia O'Keeffe

  3. #43
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by saslou View Post
    Its logical .. but how do you do that?

    (Just curious)
    I can't speak for Risen, but for me it's a simple case of accepting reality!

    I don't place my heart in people's hands, because pretty much every single person I could ever meet (including myself) is capable, in reality, of disappointing me - not necessarily through malice, but just the parts of their personality that see the world differently to me, and so will produce behaviour that I disagree with or that's different to what I would've wanted or expected, had I been less pragmatic.

    I'm trying to say that I think the tendency to base decisions on value judgements more often than not, might predispose an Fe Feeler to less realistic expectations of others, which leads to being a bit blind to the faults of their loved ones, and therefore whilst not acknowledging or giving due thought to those faults, finding it easier to put their heart in that person's hands. I guess this is what gives rise to the stereotype woman who won't listen to people telling her the guy she's in love with is a rotter, even though he clearly is, cos if she listened to that then she wouldn't be able to love him, as that'd lead to a value judgement of him as a person that'd necessitate rejecting him as "bad"; she can't reconcile in her world of value judgements, the idea of loving and valuing a "bad" person. If you're taking that view, it's gonna be easier to give your heart completely to other people, isn't it?

    Whilst a Thinker, with a more pragmatic opinion of the person, which nonetheless doesn't lead to a value judgement of them as being less worthy of love but rather an acceptance of the inevitability of the situation, would be more able to care for the person and accept them and love them for what they are in reality, yet with the side effect of there being less attachment - they're not going to put their heart in the hands of someone when the knowledge of the inevitability of being on the receiving end of their bad sides is much more conscious.

    Not sure if I explained that right, but I've not eaten yet today so that could account for it
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

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  4. #44
    Senior Member Saslou's Avatar
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    I'm trying to say that I think the tendency to base decisions on value judgements more often than not, might predispose an Fe Feeler to less realistic expectations of others, which leads to being a bit blind to the faults of their loved ones, and therefore whilst not acknowledging or giving due thought to those faults, finding it easier to put their heart in that person's hands. I guess this is what gives rise to the stereotype woman who won't listen to people telling her the guy she's in love with is a rotter, even though he clearly is, cos if she listened to that then she wouldn't be able to love him, as that'd lead to a value judgement of him as a person that'd necessitate rejecting him as "bad"; she can't reconcile in her world of value judgements, the idea of loving and valuing a "bad" person. If you're taking that view, it's gonna be easier to give your heart completely to other people, isn't it?
    That makes a lot sense. Time to be deprogrammed, lol.


    Whilst a Thinker, with a more pragmatic opinion of the person, which nonetheless doesn't lead to a value judgement of them as being less worthy of love but rather an acceptance of the inevitability of the situation, would be more able to care for the person and accept them and love them for what they are in reality, yet with the side effect of there being less attachment - they're not going to put their heart in the hands of someone when the knowledge of the inevitability of being on the receiving end of their bad sides is much more conscious.
    You said the magic word there 'Inevitability'. It is not in my vocabulary. I am to busy concentrating on the here and now with my idealistic views of what should/could be. Tomorrow is always another day and almost everything can be fixed if compromise is in the equation.
    I think i have jumped from 1 to 4, so i'll just leave it there.

    You have given me food for thought and for that i appreciate you taking the time to explain it.
    “I made you take time to look at what I saw and when you took time to really notice my flower, you hung all your associations with flowers on my flower and you write about my flower as if I think and see what you think and see—and I don't.”
    ― Georgia O'Keeffe

  5. #45
    man-made neptunesnet's Avatar
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    My friend is taking one of those psychology 101 classes for an elective this semester. Today, I casually picked up her psych book, skimmed through it, and found an entire section dedicated to love and attachment. I immediately thought of this thread.
    The book read that genuine love would include a degree of attachment, and an unbinding attachment is evidence of love like the baby example someone gave earlier because that type of attachment is a natural human response to love. However, to be merely attached because of proximity would obviously not be an indication of love...

    ...I'm torn.

  6. #46
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    looks like a question of definition there neptuneset... I think your book there's talking about attachment, meaning a positive yet masterable desire and care for the person. The more negative form that's been mentioned in this thread I don't think is the same thing as what the book's talking about...

    perhaps it's not attachment then that's the real problem, except if it's in combination with certain personality traits of maybe weak will and selfishness, so the person would be unable to subjugate the promptings of their attachment to their loved one's own needs or wishes...??

    In which case, the non-cloying, non-obligating love that's talked about here could be that these people have mastered that aspect of it so instinctively that they don't even realize they're doing it?
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

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  7. #47
    actinomycetes raindancing's Avatar
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    It's late and I'm really tired so I don't know how much this post is going to make sense, but I enjoyed reading the thread so much that I had to comment.

    I don't feel attached to people at all (with one exception, see below). And I have definitely had experience with people mistakenly thinking I didn't care because I didn't show this attachment.
    My mother is one of the worst about this. I live in a different country and if I don't contact her within the time frame she feels is appropriate, she will start to think that I don't like her or don't want to talk to her. I agree with one of the previous posters who said (I'm too lazy to find the quote) that he doesn't want to talk to them about all the mundane details of his life. Exactly! If she wants to talk to me, why doesn't she email or call me? In her mind, I have to initiate it or it doesn't count. She has a lot of insecurity issues... I won't go into it all here, but she is very attached to her family members and she requires evidence of their attachment to feel secure (and of course even then she doesn't truly feel secure).

    There have been various other relationships where people have seemed to expect me to form an attachment. I find it very weird and off-puting. I love my mom, and my other family members, but I don't like these expectations that get laced into a relationship. I want to say, 'hold on, I didn't agree to that!' It's like when they become attached to you, you suddenly become responsible for how they feel. I do not want that responsibility. I have caught myself unconsciously distancing myself from people when they started to develop those expectations, it just makes me want to run.

    Hmm maybe that's one of the reasons why I find NTs so attractive.

    Anyway, my one exception is my INTP husband. It's a bit different with him... not the negative sort of attachment being talked about, but substitute mentioned how he doesn't place his heart in people's hands. I don't either. But, I (eventually) have with my husband. It took me years (probably due to emotional abuse as a kid), but I finally was able to open my heart and place it in his hands. It's not so much like the attachment that's been talked about, it feels like we're soulmates, best friends, I honestly can't imagine life without him. (corniness alert) We've been married over 10 years but I still feel so completely in love it's incredible.
    So yes, I am attached to him, but not in the sense of having to show attachment.. I don't know how to describe it... I guess you could say It feels like harmony.

    Hmm I don't think I articulated what I was trying to say very well... tooooo tired

    Oh yes, one other thing I was thinking about. Does anyone else have this thing where you focus on the people or person you're around, anyone you're not with sort of fades into the background?

    It's not that I stop liking or loving them, it's just that I always get caught up with who I'm with or what I'm doing. I even inadvertently do it to my husband when we visit my family (we stay in my parents house). He says if feels like he looses me for a whole month and it's not til we get on the plane that I come back to him.
    I've had someone accuse me of 'putting people on pedestals and knocking them off when I get bored', which was not what I was doing, but I can see how enthusiasm and paying lots of attention to them, then getting distracted by someone/something else could feel that way...

    Guess I thought that last post could possibly relate to lack of attachment...
    “Can a man of perception respect himself at all?”
    ― Fyodor Dostoyevsky

  8. #48
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raindancing View Post
    It's like when they become attached to you, you suddenly become responsible for how they feel. I do not want that responsibility. I have caught myself unconsciously distancing myself from people when they started to develop those expectations, it just makes me want to run.
    Yes, that's the part that really gets me. Nobody's responsible for my feelings but me - any one thing a person can do that gives rise to a certain emotional response in me might give rise to completely different responses in other people, the exact same act. So why does it suddenly become my responsibility that someone's feeling sad, angry, or whatever, in response to me simply behaving in ways that are natural and true to myself? Ways which many other people have no issues with at all?

    Basically they want to change you... which suggests to me that they don't really want you at all. They want someone, a prop, for a certain purpose, to fulfill a need of theirs.

    I don't discount the idea that I could form attachments or that I'm capable of it. I have done once in the past, but it was a very peculiar circumstance that's not likely to be repeated... It happens, or it doesn't, and it can't be forced just for the other person wanting it NOW, and I just refuse to be made to feel guilty about that. About just not being someone else, basically.

    I just know that with me, the more pressure and expectation that's put on me, the more negative I'm going to feel towards that person, the less likely I am to even think of them fondly, let alone want to be with them; the chances of attachment in that case are zero.

    Quote Originally Posted by raindancing View Post

    Oh yes, one other thing I was thinking about. Does anyone else have this thing where you focus on the people or person you're around, anyone you're not with sort of fades into the background?
    Oh yes, totally. If it's someone I find very interesting, I totally hone in on them and am oblivious to almost everything else.

    I've had someone accuse me of 'putting people on pedestals and knocking them off when I get bored', which was not what I was doing, but I can see how enthusiasm and paying lots of attention to them, then getting distracted by someone/something else could feel that way...
    Yeah I've got that too. I don't think I put people on pedestals at all... i'm pretty damned pragmatic about people usually. I give a lot of a sorta interim trust though at first, on matters that aren't really of great weight to me so it doesn't bother me if they screw up, cos I don't see the point in treating people as guilty until proven innocent (like Ni types seem to, to me lol). I guess it's my way of getting the measure of them.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
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  9. #49
    Member Hazle Weatherfield's Avatar
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    I feel like attachment in this thread has been viewed as either A) bad or B) unconnected to relationships. To clarify, attachment is a neutral term and is happening ALL THE TIME in relationships of all degrees. I'm talking platonic friends, acquaintances, coworkers, intimate partners, parents, siblings, etc. In one theory, there are four basic types of attachment and it sounds like the OP has pretty secure attachment based on the descriptions of her relationships. Now, when attachment begins to be unhealthy or "insecure" (or "bad"), that's when people experience the clingy, needy jealous behavior (insecure-resistant/ambivalent) or indifferent connection (insecure-avoidant). The last style is called "disorganized" and I think you'd know if you experience that or know someone who does.

    Another thing about attachment theory is that it is independent of personality type in that any type can have any of the attachment styles. These styles are also plastic. They can change throughout a person's life and even interact with other individuals' styles, meaning you may experience different types of attachment with different people depending on their attachment style.

    That being said, I feel like if a person has a secure attachment in a loving relationship, then "attachment" can appear non-existent, which I think is why some people don't feel they get attached. It's because they are secure enough in that/those relationships to be okay with separation and the like. I suppose an insecure-avoidant type may also feel like they don't get attached, but I think the effects would be more stressful, maybe easier to recognize. It is definitely something to mull over and keep in mind.

    Love and attachment, then, I feel kind of go hand in hand, it just depends on whether that's a healthy attachment or not. Like the OP's love of her car. The fact that she is unwilling to harm herself to save her car if it was on fire-that's secure attachment. I mean, it is a car after all. The fact she is not pining after her children while they are away grandma's-that's healthy recognition that she needs her alone time away from her children and her children need it as well to develop their own secure attachments.

    I also have read that there are different types of love involving different components-passion, intimacy, and commitment-and love that includes all the components is the deepest, truest of all, called "consumate love." There is also "companionate love," which is intimacy and commitment; "romantic love," which is intimacy and passion; and there is "fatuous love," which is passion and commitment. The components on their own also have love types assigned to them. Intimacy is called "liking." Commitment/decision is called "empty love," which is most similar to arranged marriages where the other parts of love are learned and incorporate gradually into the relationship. Passion is called "infatuation." There are many theories of love, and this is one of the major theories taught in psychology classes. I think attachment fits in a variety of ways with all these types of love, and so it makes sense to see posts in which a person feels attachment occur with one individual and not with another. There are so many factors at play, it is so difficult to separate them out and see what is truly the cause and whether love and attachment exist together or not, but I do know they are not the same thing.

  10. #50
    actinomycetes raindancing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post


    I just know that with me, the more pressure and expectation that's put on me, the more negative I'm going to feel towards that person, the less likely I am to even think of them fondly, let alone want to be with them; the chances of attachment in that case are zero.
    Exactly.



    Yeah I've got that too. I don't think I put people on pedestals at all... i'm pretty damned pragmatic about people usually. I give a lot of a sorta interim trust though at first, on matters that aren't really of great weight to me so it doesn't bother me if they screw up, cos I don't see the point in treating people as guilty until proven innocent (like Ni types seem to, to me lol). I guess it's my way of getting the measure of them.
    It takes quite a lot for me to view someone as guilty, that would require a negative personal judgement... I tend to hone in on motives and first of all, you can never be completely sure what someone else's motives are and second, people's motives are not often intentionally 'bad', even though the results can be misguided.

    At least this is my opinion of people. Even people in my life who have done some pretty bad things (emotional abuse), I have a hard time actually judging them, when you look at the motives and reasons behind the actions... Judge the action, yes. Judge the person, hmm I'm not as ok with that.
    “Can a man of perception respect himself at all?”
    ― Fyodor Dostoyevsky

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