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  1. #31
    Senior Member Saslou's Avatar
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    Hmmm. It is what it is. My car is my freedom, my house is the place to lie my head at night, my children are my life. If i lose my car or house, oh well. It can be replaced.

    I can be away from my children and just get on with my life. Although i am happy to see them again.

    I view the title and i think to myself, am i taking it all for granted?

    I lost something important to me and only realised later just how important it was in the first place.

    Maybe love should equal attachment.

    I knew an NT who would totally agree with your line of thought though.
    “I made you take time to look at what I saw and when you took time to really notice my flower, you hung all your associations with flowers on my flower and you write about my flower as if I think and see what you think and see—and I don't.”
    ― Georgia O'Keeffe

  2. #32
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    yeah... but I was once told by a counsellor that it's not good to "should" people about emotions. If you get persuaded that you "should" feel certain things to qualify for those things that make one a good person - capacity to love, to care, for compassion, that sorta thing - then if you find you can't and just don't feel those things, you'll feel guilty, and what's to be gained by that? low self-esteem, that's what. and a lot of people might resort to FAKING them so they can be seen as good, even though they actually are good anyway!

    If a person does love someone, yet is not attached to them, not because they choose not to be any more than you would "choose" any emotion, they're not things you choose are they? But if that's the way someone feels, then that's the deal and it should be accepted. I don't think it's right to make a person feel that their love or whatever is less valid or valuable just because it doesn't come with other things that it "should" do in any one person's opinion.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
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    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  3. #33
    Senior Member Saslou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    yeah... but I was once told by a counsellor that it's not good to "should" people about emotions. If you get persuaded that you "should" feel certain things to qualify for those things that make one a good person - capacity to love, to care, for compassion, that sorta thing - then if you find you can't and just don't feel those things, you'll feel guilty, and what's to be gained by that? low self-esteem, that's what. and a lot of people might resort to FAKING them so they can be seen as good, even though they actually are good anyway!

    If a person does love someone, yet is not attached to them, not because they choose not to be any more than you would "choose" any emotion, they're not things you choose are they? But if that's the way someone feels, then that's the deal and it should be accepted. I don't think it's right to make a person feel that their love or whatever is less valid or valuable just because it doesn't come with other things that it "should" do in any one person's opinion.
    Very good point and also noted.
    “I made you take time to look at what I saw and when you took time to really notice my flower, you hung all your associations with flowers on my flower and you write about my flower as if I think and see what you think and see—and I don't.”
    ― Georgia O'Keeffe

  4. #34
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Nah it doesn't. 'true love' (whatever that means) is to be able to be detached for the good and freedom of another agent.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  5. #35
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    Nah it doesn't. 'true love' (whatever that means) is to be able to be detached for the good and freedom of another agent.
    I'd further specify that it's not deliberately and consciously detaching for their benefit, but rather just finding oneself in that state naturally, without even noticing the existence of other options, simply because that's your Tao, as 'twere lol and that simply benefits all concerned as a natural by-product of it.

    Like the Tao says innit - don't try to DO good; simply be yourself, and let it BE good. And love is good, innit.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  6. #36
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    I think attachment might be connected to the idea of loss. The person who feels attached to a country or home feels loss if they don't continue to create memories or experiences in that place. Another person feels loss if their children grow up and they didn't witness their first steps or first day of school. Those specific events are "lost".

    I can see a more abstract way of relating to the world might place less significance on concrete events, experiences, and memories. I am curious though, if people who can separate love and attachment also separate out a sense of loss. If not, how would loss be experienced?
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
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  7. #37
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    good point Toonia. I can't say I really experience loss, or have yet, at least as I hear other people talking about it... I mean I have lost things, of course, but it doesn't seem to have affected me in the way people seemed to expect it to or assume it would, or in the ways I've seen it affect many others.

    except for things that like, never could have been, like a childhood in my correct gender, but that's less a sentimental/emotional feeling of loss than a literal one, because evidence of it surfaces periodically in my day to day life, when I realize that I'm all at sea in a situation where others are at ease, it being conspicuous to me that the reason for that is that they've shared certain life experiences that they take for granted, which I have not and never could have, but which everyone generally assumes I did. So the loss is more felt from the point of view that not having had those things makes human relations for me difficult in ways that others neither understand nor, in many cases, even believe, but certainly never assume or bear in mind when dealing with me. It causes me real life difficulties, that's all, that I wish I didn't have to contend with. I feel very little sense of attachment to the idea of having those things for emotional reasons.

    when it comes to losing friends or loved ones, I don't think I really feel loss as such... when my dad died, it sorta didn't make much difference to me, cos I could still do "with" him the things I always had, the ones I valued most anyway. Which were to have him crop up in my thoughts and make me smile or remember things... the knowledge of his existence and continued process of figuring him out and understanding him, etc...

    I guess when you're focused mainly on the abstract aspects of life generally, it would follow that those abstract things would be what you'd value most in a relationship of any kind. I suppose that'd be why, perhaps, the "loss" of the physical, practical things such as personal presence etc, might not be felt so keenly, or as in my case usually, not at all, because the abstract aspects can still be enjoyed whether the person or relationship is lost in the physical sense or not.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  8. #38
    man-made neptunesnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Just to toss in my bone here, to meet the OP:

    I'm scared sometimes at how much intensity in love and commitment I can feel to someone in my life, my commitment is never in question... and yet feel like if they disappeared tomorrow or if they're gone, I'm totally fine and would be fine and would just move on.

    I don't get it, it seems sort of contradictory to me.
    Phobic/counterphobic, maybe, even, too.
    +1

    Honestly, my first instinct was to reject this idea, but when I started to re-evaluate my own thoughts and feelings on love I would wholeheartedly agree with you. I too am afraid that I love too deeply and with too much intensity sometimes yet if I lost that loved one I could find the strength to move on. It's not that I'm heartless. I'm far from it. I just don't see real love on those terms.

    A while ago a friend of mine asked me if I were married would I prefer to die before my husband or prefer my husband to die before me. I told her I'd prefer my husband to die first, and my answer just floored her. She couldn't believe that I'd want that. I've always felt that I'm able to handle the loss of a loved one better than other people are. The way I see it is I'd rather I felt the pain of losing my husband than he would for losing me. I don't see anything wrong with that.

    I'm slowly warming up fully to the idea of love doesn't have to mean attachment. It's difficult for me sometimes because I have my own insecurities and feel like I need some sort of tangible indication that I'm liked by that person :rolli:, but I'm getting better at suppressing those feelings.

    Btw, this thread is great!

  9. #39
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by neptunesnet View Post
    +1

    Honestly, my first instinct was to reject this idea
    So is a lot of people's... at least you actually gave it a fair hearing and an open mind, which is more than soooo many other people manage!

    It's difficult for me sometimes because I have my own insecurities and feel like I need some sort of tangible indication that I'm liked by that person :rolli:, but I'm getting better at suppressing those feelings.
    Well, I dunno about whether you should suppress them, but I think it's a good idea to draw a distinction between your own feelings or needs that spring from your own insecurities, and what you oblige the other person to do (directly or indirectly), and how you evaluate what they actually do give you.

    I say that, cos the same counsellor that told me about not "shoulding" people also told me that you're not supposed to enable insecurity by validating their fears. They said if someone says they want you to call every week cos otherwise they start thinking you don't care, even if you do call every week, before long it'll be "why don't you call me twice a week?" and if you do that, it'll be "well why do you only call me the minimum times I asked you to? don't you ever WANT to call me at other times?" and that's a whole slippery slope.

    Or if they want you to say nice things to them and compliment them, even if you do it, before long they'll start questioning why you're saying it and whether you mean it, and taking your compliments the wrong way so they make out you were actually insulting them, then you find you're in the dock and having to always explain yourself even though you've done nothing wrong, they'll say you used the wrong tone of voice or that they don't like that particular way of wording things, so now you've got to change the way you talk and remember to come out with compliments all the time when you wouldn't naturally do it, and call twice a week at least and other times in between, and... and... and...

    ...and you'll find yourself swamped with this ever lengthening list of demands on your behaviour and time that are all just aimed at appeasing the insecurity based fear monster inside them by "proving" that you care. They think, and they might convince you too, that if you acquiesce to the demands, you'll help them and make them feel more secure, but it don't work like that. It's just feeding the troll inside them lol

    It's THEY who need to change their behaviour and way of thinking, not everyone else.

    That's why I just said, not really aiming at you, but just generally anyone else who's reading that it might benefit, it's really important to recognize when you're insecure that it's your problem, and not to start projecting all the fears and stuff it conjures up in you onto other people and expecting them to fulfill its needs on pain of being thought not to care.

    And I say that cos I know when you're insecure you really need people who care about you, you need their love, but that sorta behaviour will push a lot of people away who really did want to care about you, and you'll find a bit of self-fulfilling prophecy going on there... In the end, they shoulda just let you call when you felt like it, when you genuinely wanted to, and dealt with their nagging doubts and fears by talking to friends or seeing a counsellor or whatever, rather than seek to blame others for bad feelings that comes from inside them.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  10. #40
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    ...all of which is a long winded way of saying that if you don't badger people about doing this or that outward token or sign to show they care, according to your criteria, then you leave them free to show they care in the way they naturally do, then you get to learn about different ways that people show they care, you learn to recognize more of them, and then end up less reliant on those stereotypical things that you've previously been fixed on. Ergo, their absence won't make you feel necessarily that this is proof they don't care, and hence you don't need to feel so insecure, and your loved ones are free to be themselves.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

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