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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wild horses View Post
    WOW... i like that you have said what I have often thought or been critised for... I don't think love and attachment are the same thing at all. In fact I think the saying 'to truely love someone is to set them free' is more than wishful thinking!
    +1

    I've often suffered (if thats even the right word) this problem. It's not that I don't care about or love the person in question, its that my personality doesn't lend itself to pining over people who aren't there. I love my parents beyond measure and I live in the same city as them. Do I talk to them on the phone everyday, or see them once a week? No. Some might think this makes me a bad person but to be honest, the thought doesn't even pop in my head that "Oh I haven't told my parents about the mundane goings on of my life, I better call them." This happens not only with my parents, but with close friends that live far away. Yes I stay in touch, but its not like I'm taking an hour out of every day (or even every week, or month) to catch up with people.

    For me to get in touch with someone, be it friend, GF, family, or w/e, there has to be some material purpose to get in contact. This purpose could be "I'm going up to visit my buddy in DC. I better call him and tell him when I'm flying in and to which airport". I'll never txt or call someone just to say hi. I may say I am, but what is usually happening in that situation is that I'm interested in a girl and wanted to ask her out, or take some other step towards creating a relationship, and used getting in touch as an excuse to further that purpose.

    This thread I think highlights a misunderstanding between Ts and Fs that may create a lot of hardship. It seems that many people draw a proportional relationship between attachment and love (or the amount you care). For Ts generally, this is simply not the case.

    We might not express our love like other types, but when we love someone, they know it through and through.

  2. #12
    Senior Member Wild horses's Avatar
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    I don't know.... I mean those around me that put alot of perssure on me as a child and had control and attachement issues were extremely insecure... I'm not trying to say however, that everyone who views love this way is insecure just maybe a coincidence... or epople who view attachment in different ways... To me if I put pressure on someone and attached myself to them it would make me more insecure not less... I would always have in the back of my mind that they were only with me because they felt a sense of duty... or were spinless under my enomous pressure
    ... couldn't drag me away

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  3. #13
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    in fact, I think I've said in the past as well, that it's exactly because most people have insecurity of one kind or another, that's why the pressure to "match" their attachment level to that of the other person who's requiring it of them only makes them detach more and more.

    I don't have the "nobody really likes me, they just humour me" kind of insecurity, but I do have a bit of the "nobody is really committed, they're not truly invested except for what they can get for themselves out of me. If I fail to work out what they want from me and deliver it then they'll be angry at me and blame me for that anger, and then when that happens a few times they'll withdraw their investment and abandon me".

    When someone attaches to me more than I do to them, or to a greater level than I can manage in such a time frame or at all, it makes me feel like I'm being set tests and exams all the time that are actually rigged so that I can't help but fail them, and knowing that they'll judge me as a person, as a friend, as a partner or whatever else by the results of these tests, knowing I'll fail them, it makes me feel like I've perceived the selfish nature of their investment in me, I can no longer believe in their love for me, their attachment seems to block them being able to love me because it makes them obsessed with their own need for me to reciprocate it so that they don't see anything else, including any signs of actual genuine love that I might be showing. That makes me distrust them and keep them at arm's length, disliking the pressure and guilt they put me under when around them. It's a vicious circle whereby they achieve the exact opposite of what they say they want.
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  4. #14
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    So need for attachment = insecurity.

    How this goes back to attachment styles in infants...
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  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wild horses View Post
    I don't know.... I mean those around me that put alot of perssure on me as a child and had control and attachement issues were extremely insecure... I'm not trying to say however, that everyone who views love this way is insecure just maybe a coincidence... or epople who view attachment in different ways... To me if I put pressure on someone and attached myself to them it would make me more insecure not less... I would always have in the back of my mind that they were only with me because they felt a sense of duty... or were spinless under my enomous pressure
    Where have you been all my life???!!!
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  6. #16
    Senior Member Wild horses's Avatar
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    Just hanging around..... pretending to be an ENFP
    ... couldn't drag me away

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  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    +1
    Yes I stay in touch, but its not like I'm taking an hour out of every day (or even every week, or month) to catch up with people.
    Same here pal. Do you ever have to sit and listen to someone boasting about how dutiful their son/daughter is, that they call them every week and send them cards and stuff like that?

    In fact, do you ever suspect that those people who constantly send those sickening, cloying forwarded email messages about love and friendship are actually doing it because it's a quick and easy way for them to fulfill their self-imposed duty of "showing they care" by constantly "contacting" you, even though it's with a cheesy message that if they thought about you for one moment, they'd know you hated, and which moreover they didn't even write themselves? And that in fact, they only clicked the mouse twice and it was thereby sent to everyone in their massively long emailing list, and that you doubt very much that they stopped and thought about each individual person in that list before sending it and dedicated the whole poem sincerely to them? And that you'd have welcomed much more enthusiastically a simple 'hi, how's it going?' from them personally, or just being left alone?

    Have you ever told such a person how you feel about those messages and asked them to stop sending them, and had them react with anger and hurt and indignation, insisting that they were just showing they cared and feeling like you've rejected them and shown that you hate them now?

    For me to get in touch with someone, be it friend, GF, family, or w/e, there has to be some material purpose to get in contact. This purpose could be "I'm going up to visit my buddy in DC. I better call him and tell him when I'm flying in and to which airport". I'll never txt or call someone just to say hi. I may say I am, but what is usually happening in that situation is that I'm interested in a girl and wanted to ask her out, or take some other step towards creating a relationship, and used getting in touch as an excuse to further that purpose.
    Ah...the ENTJ mind, ever the strategist

    Yeah, same here. And people say "so you only contact me when you want something? never just to see how I am?" And I'm like "well I assume if you have some important news, you'll contact me, I shouldn't have to keep sending you uninteresting and mundane messages every day on the off chance that you might reply one day with "well, I had a heart attack this morning and am having a triple by-pass this afternoon"!

    Plus, if I'm texting them for a strategic reason like you mention above, it's exactly because I've arranged to see them and am looking forward to it and want to make sure it's all going according to plan. Or because I really like them and want to get to know them better.

    I don't understand how some people can take this as negatively as they do.

    We might not express our love like other types, but when we love someone, they know it through and through.
    Ah, but do they though? I know I've been accused many times in the past of not loving people that I really do love.

    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    I think you're onto something there sub. I have an NT friend that describes love in this way... "Love is when you think fondly of something whenever you have a free moment in your life." It's a nice description. Very different than attachment.
    Hmm... at first glance I thought 'yeah, that's spot on'. But then I thought of the people who've given me hell and put me through hard times, who've been a real labour of love themselves lol And i've known the whole time, even when they were at their worst, that I still loved them and had no intention of abandoning them. And even people who've walked away from me in anger after saying a bunch of hurtful and unfair things, I've not been able to stop loving them even when I wanted to. Even though, not being attached, I was relieved to have them out of my life I know if they needed me for something, I'd be there without a second thought.

    Think for example about teenage kids and how they drive their parents crazy. There are times when they're such little bastards that the parents even start getting desperate thoughts of having them fostered or just getting rid of them somehow cross their minds. C'mon, admit it fellow parents, you know you do! But you know you'd never do it, it's just a desperate thought in the heat of a moment. In reality it doesn't matter how much of a shit they are, you still love them unconditionally and permanently.

    Even though it can be that when you think of them, rather than smile, you wish you hadn't thought of them and turn to anything from TV to alcohol to forget them for the time being!!
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  8. #18
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    Well, I'll put it this way.

    Everyone that I love understands, in no uncertain terms, what their relationship means to me. With my closest friends this usually means that we've had the "I love you man and would take a baseball bat to the face for you" conversation.

    With girls, and I can only say I've truly loved one, it is no different. The "one" in question was seeing someone else and moving away (the someone else was where she was moving back to). Before she left, I called her and told her how I felt. I'm not one to get emotional, but I began to cry as I explained to her what she meant to me. I told her all these things in the knowledge that she was leaving, that I might never meet someone who I cared about as much, and that my confession would most likely not influence her to stay. I told her anyway. I felt that, as long as she was happy, no matter who she was with, or where she was, and that she knew how I felt, there was nothing more I could ask. If that isn't love then I'll hang up my heart and never use it again.

    My feelings for her still haunt me. And I think about her fondly often. But I've probably only said four words to her since she left.

  9. #19
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    I wish I feel more attached than I do. To me it seems like I am below the minimum.
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  10. #20
    Senior Member Wild horses's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    I wish I feel more attached than I do. To me it seems like I am below the minimum.

    You're not alone by the looks of things
    ... couldn't drag me away

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