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[Jungian Cognitive Functions] Ti and Art

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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I guess I realized I have a particular problem. I don't know what to do with art. Whether it's film, fiction, or music.

I guess I feel that when I find something I like, I can't help but trying to pull it apart with Ti. It occured to me that this might interfere with me appreciating it fully. It seems likely to me that it could be that Ti is the function that is the worst suited to this sort of thing.

For instance, I really like things that are pretty surrealistic. I just watched this weird movie about Bob Dylan, and I found myself to analyze the whole thing I was watching, trying to figure out what each thing was "symbolic" of, instead of just trying to watch the movie as it stood. I was trying to figure out what each part meant. (although this could be more Ne than Ti).

Anyway, I was wondering which function is best suited for dealing with this kind of thing. Is it completely erroneous, as I'm beginning to suspect, to use Ti for such a thing?

Might I not be better off using F, S, or N when it comes to experiencing art? I hope this makes some kind of sense.
 

ChocolateMoose123

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If you watched I'm Not There then don't worry. Unless you really know Dylan. It's confusing. It's confusing regardless. So maybe that's a bad example? Dunno.

Anyway, I think it's natural to pick apart art, music, etc. But I usually do this only after the initial experience of watching or listening to it. Usually I will like/dislike something - not know why. Then go back listen/watch again and analyze.

Is this what you do? Or is your 1st inclination to analyze?
 

OrionzRevenge

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Might I not be better off using F, S, or N when it comes to experiencing art? I hope this makes some kind of sense.

I doubt there is a right answer as to how one ingest art. As I think the meaning, message, moral, and MBTI type of the artist would dictate what ways in which they wish to connect with the viewer.

As per movies, I have often seen interviews where movie-maker types say they have failed if you notice the construction and don’t get lost in the film.

But a strong ‘S’ artist would want you to notice.

Example, 70s SciFi often had long duration shots of complex spaceships. As if the artist wants to say: “We spent a lot of bucks and creative talent to make this model/shot…please, do ogle!” Whereas, Lucas being very INTPish spends millions and gives you a very short glance as the ship streaks past. As if to say: “ I want you to intuit that this is a very complex and fast-paced galaxy, and you haven’t even seen the tip of the iceberg yet!”

Consider how and at what level would a N, S, T, and F ingest say…
Terms of Endearment, or 2001, or a good whodunit where the physical clues are in plain sight but (for most) get lost in the sleight of hand of emotion, or action, or meaning, or even implication???

Art is in the eye of the beholder, and what you behold is valid.
Maybe the best way to get more is to re-watch the film and force yourself out of your own MBTI box.
 

tinkerbell

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eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwweeeeeeeeeeee my pet hate, picking things appart that doesn't need picking apart. Sadly you are not alone...

Most art appreciation classes do nothing but encouraging picking apart art - sometimes with the purpose of uncovering more but more often to criteque.... So your Ti is not alone by any streach but I'm sensing you yourself are loosing the pleasure through conducting this analytic process.

Fortunately I was dragged around art galleries and the likes as a kid, before the education establishments tried to corrupt my thinking. Admittedly at the time myself and my Bro were big on findng fun stuff to do while being dragged around, so we took to renaming the works of art... You'd be surpsied how many people are inspired by "Ugly naked bird eating grapes".... So many cover versions... :)

Not eveything has a rational reason, you can learn to enjoy something because it's pleasurable not because it has higher meaning. Sunrise, bird song etc...

Maybe you need to emerge yourself in a variety of art sources in order just to find out what floats your boat... no analysis required.

When I take friends to see art they often think they need to pick it apart in order to feel like they are experieincing something, I encourage them to say if they like it or hate it, and why if they can... and keep it that simple. All the pretensious nonsence is just that...

PS - if it's abstract art, just moan they hung it upside down...
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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If you watched I'm Not There then don't worry. Unless you really know Dylan. It's confusing. It's confusing regardless. So maybe that's a bad example? Dunno.

I know a bit about him, so I got some of the references, but this is really less about that particular movie and more my attitude in general.

Anyway, I think it's natural to pick apart art, music, etc. But I usually do this only after the initial experience of watching or listening to it. Usually I will like/dislike something - not know why. Then go back listen/watch again and analyze.

Is this what you do? Or is your 1st inclination to analyze?

No, my first inclination is to analyze while I'm experiencing it. I can't help it. I find it very hard to just watch or listen to something unless my mind is preoccupied with something else.

The problem with analyzing things in this way is that it inhibits your experience. The mind can only do so many things at once. If it's too busy trying to figure how something works, or why something was done, it's probably missing a lot of things. So, any analysis that does exist is likely to be off because it's based on an incomplete picture.

I think the way you do it is probably better.... (I like the analysis, but it's a problem), but that's hard for me.

Not eveything has a rational reason, you can learn to enjoy something because it's pleasurable not because it has higher meaning. Sunrise, bird song etc...

Remember, I'm a Ti dominant, so this is very hard for me to accept, though I'm speculating that this might be the case.

When I take friends to see art they often think they need to pick it apart in order to feel like they are experieincing something, I encourage them to say if they like it or hate it, and why if they can... and keep it that simple. All the pretensious nonsence is just that...

I think it's less pretension as it is just what I do.
 

tinkerbell

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:D Glad to hear it....

Try practicing looking at thing just for the pleausre of it - it is a skill and it can be learned with practice.
 
B

brainheart

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I'm Not There! One of my favorite movies! But also, I love Bob Dylan and I love Todd Haynes (the director). My Se has a field day with his creations. Analyzing movies... I primarily do this with movies that I hate, and I'm trying to pinpoint why. I may analyze the ones I love, later, but at the time I am focused on enjoying. It sounds like what you are describing, Msg, is getting caught up in your Ti, for sure- lots of judging vs perceiving.

If a movie sucks, I will definitely get stuck in my dominant function. An indication of a good pic to me is that it gets me out of my more critical self and into the perceptual me. That's why I love good films so much- they can be transformative.
 

Fluffywolf

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Art is creativity. Ti is creative. Most art, especially the film kind. Is impressionism. Impressionism and Ti doesn't work together at all.

It's what happens if you creatively try to understand something inheritly creative.
 

Fluffywolf

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Because impressionism is created and has as a purpose to supply N or S. And usually aims at an emotion or feeling. Movies are the same, good movies are put together to portray emotion and feeling. Ti tends to look past that, and measures a lot of the detail. And by doing that, you ignore the impression, while watching the movie. And are much more interested in the plot, details and such. While missing the overall feeling the movie was supposed to portray.

At least, that's what Ti does for me. I've watched movies with people that were like, omg, such an awesome movie. And I was like, but this and that and yada yada. And they're like, dude, what the heck were you paying attention to anyhow, now I need to re-watch it because I have no idea what you're talking about. And I'm like, weren't we watching the same movie?
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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Yeah, but I also have N and S, I just don't use them as much. So theoretically, I should be able to use them for that. Occasionally, when I read, for instance, I get a sense of the feeling and I understand what that place must be like. I think I have this capability inside me, I just haven't been able to harness them yet.
 

Fluffywolf

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I'm not saying using Ti is wrong by the way. I enjoy Ti a lot as well. But it's a different form of enjoyment than N/S. And other people rarily relate to that.

I tend to ignore Ti a bit and go N/S impressionism mode whenever I'm tired though. :yes:

Watch a movie when you're tired, and voila? :)
 

Kra

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Because impressionism is created and has as a purpose to supply N or S. And usually aims at an emotion or feeling. Movies are the same, good movies are put together to portray emotion and feeling. Ti tends to look past that, and measures a lot of the detail. And by doing that, you ignore the impression, while watching the movie. And are much more interested in the plot, details and such. While missing the overall feeling the movie was supposed to portray.

At least, that's what Ti does for me. I've watched movies with people that were like, omg, such an awesome movie. And I was like, but this and that and yada yada. And they're like, dude, what the heck were you paying attention to anyhow, now I need to re-watch it because I have no idea what you're talking about. And I'm like, weren't we watching the same movie?

I agree with you. I think Ti is more involved or impressed with arrangement and capability, rather than the emotions displayed in art. Concept over feeling I suppose.

In a musical sense, I liken Ti to being more supportive of a composer, as opposed to a lyricist/poet.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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I'm not saying using Ti is wrong by the way. I enjoy Ti a lot as well. But it's a different form of enjoyment than N/S. And other people rarily relate to that.

I tend to ignore Ti a bit and go N/S impressionism mode whenever I'm tired though. :yes:

Watch a movie when you're tired, and voila? :)

I didn't think you said it was wrong. It's just that I'm interested in different ways in seeing things. I love Ti, but I wonder about its limits. Moreover, I wonder if use of it can alienate people because it's often seen as pretentious.

You know, when I was in college, and pulled all-nighters, I felt like I appreciated songs before. They seemed to get me more much more emotional. In fact, I seemed much more emotional in general. I never tried this on movies, though.


Hmm, I wonder if alcohol could do that....
 

Matthew_Z

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Have you considered applying this approach to other areas? Instead of seeing facial expression as "emotion," try seeing it as a movement of muscle tissue controlled by a chemical machine inside the head. You can even look in a mirror for this exercise.

And now it suddenly dawns on us as to why F is sometimes compared to N.

Anyways, to appreciate art, I've always tried to personify it. If the art were alive, what would it tell me? What would it have to show? After this question is answered, another one follows: Who is to say that it need be alive to speak?
 

SerengetiBetty

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Because impressionism is created and has as a purpose to supply N or S. And usually aims at an emotion or feeling. Movies are the same, good movies are put together to portray emotion and feeling. Ti tends to look past that, and measures a lot of the detail. And by doing that, you ignore the impression, while watching the movie. And are much more interested in the plot, details and such. While missing the overall feeling the movie was supposed to portray.

At least, that's what Ti does for me. I've watched movies with people that were like, omg, such an awesome movie. And I was like, but this and that and yada yada. And they're like, dude, what the heck were you paying attention to anyhow, now I need to re-watch it because I have no idea what you're talking about. And I'm like, weren't we watching the same movie?

This is an interesting take on it and helps possibly explain some things I've noticed about myself when I look at art,listen to music or watch film. When looking at paintings, I'll notice the patterns of the brush strokes. When listening to music, I'll hear changes in notes. When watching films, I'll pick up on plot points. When I look at any type of art,it's almost as if I have to first get past the analysis of how it was done before I can step back and look at it as a whole and determine if it's pleasing or not.

Consequently my friends hate when I pick apart a film after we watch it. What really gets them is if I say "I liked it" after all the nitpicking :devil:
 

paperoceans

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Because impressionism is created and has as a purpose to supply N or S. And usually aims at an emotion or feeling. Movies are the same, good movies are put together to portray emotion and feeling. Ti tends to look past that, and measures a lot of the detail. And by doing that, you ignore the impression, while watching the movie. And are much more interested in the plot, details and such. While missing the overall feeling the movie was supposed to portray.

At least, that's what Ti does for me. I've watched movies with people that were like, omg, such an awesome movie. And I was like, but this and that and yada yada. And they're like, dude, what the heck were you paying attention to anyhow, now I need to re-watch it because I have no idea what you're talking about. And I'm like, weren't we watching the same movie?

RAmen.

This may or may not be related to the topic at hand, but I used to "do art"... And I was very good at it. I often won awards and was able to meet the Marlins (not that I cared because I'm not athletic at all nor do I have any type of interest in sports); I even went to an art magnet school. Even at nine I was able to draw realistic faces, but at around 11 I stopped. Went cold turkey and I haven't picked up a pencil since. This was around the time when I became more interested in theories and the history of the world... and when I began to find science "fascinating"; so I guess my T was developing and something that I had as a child was disintegrating into nothingness. Honestly, I'm convinced that I started out as an ISFP and something changed in me.

Anyway, ever since I cannot understand art at all. The majority of the time it makes absolutely no sense to me. I often catch myself trying to pull apart each and every piece (this includes films) or I just think it's completely stupid. Honestly, I think that my Te is to blame. I just cannot sit back and be expected to enjoy a film or piece of "art" without trying to understand the reason behind it. And then when I am done analyzing something, I come to the conclusion that it's meaningless and I quickly dismiss it.

Honestly, we think too much to truly appreciated "art" (if that is what it is) films, etc.

[edit] example, I took a picture of this "thing" and I can't figure out WTF it is supposed to be. Am I supposed to feel something?

1z5sx6r.jpg
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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I think paperoceans gets to the crux of the matter with me, although I personally am less likely to dismiss at as "meaningless". More often I assume that I'm just missing something.

I feel as though an SP or NF would be better able to appreciate something like what's above. Keep in mind, it's not that I don't want to appreciate it. It's more that, more often than not, I'm missing something. I'd be really curious to know how an SP or an NF might view art.

(I'm inclined to think an SJ might just dismiss it as weird, although I may be wrong.)
 

iamathousandapples

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That's odd, considering music is the only thing that actually gets a reaction out of me nowadays(or any time, to be honest). Maybe it's just an INTP thing(Although I doubt it, and I'm just an odd case.) I have no idea what the hell that thing is and why anyone would pay anything to get that hunk of junk on a pedestal. For all there is, Modern art consists of this:
1124519661_small-image_96_barnett_newman_day_one_195152_sm.jpg

(Yes, this is an actual painting.)
 

Matthew_Z

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That's odd, considering music is the only thing that actually gets a reaction out of me nowadays(or any time, to be honest). Maybe it's just an INTP thing(Although I doubt it, and I'm just an odd case.) I have no idea what the hell that thing is and why anyone would pay anything to get that hunk of junk on a pedestal. For all there is, Modern art consists of this:
1124519661_small-image_96_barnett_newman_day_one_195152_sm.jpg

(Yes, this is an actual painting.)
Well, it certainly displays the concept of something being completely enveloping all else. Instead of shades of red or yellow, we have this one color engulfing all and removing creativity. Reddish colors being related to rage, this painting displays how all of the beauty in one's life can be destroyed by rage. It consumes all and takes on the nature of that which it consumes.

And now, what I've been dying to say:
You SURE someone just didn't take a picture of a wall?
 
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