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  1. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    Why don't they think they can? I want to get to the bottom of this.
    Is it that they experience persistent rejection when they interact as themselves?
    I think some of the answer can be found in the 'Relationship" thread about introverts and confidence. The other half, well some of it I believe is a strange dynamic between internal and external standards of how to complete tasks, or what is considered success.

    A great deal of people here say, and I'm sure do, they put themselves up to a higher standard. This includes INTP's for the most part, when we aren't apathetic. However, it isn't hard creating the standard, it's hard trusting that this standard is the best way to live, or right. I think this leads to some of the neurosis that exists. An INTP has the potiental to obsess over their personal standard because it doesn't necessarily line up with the overall external standard, and even though this is the furthest away from an INTP's mind if you add failure to this-- i.e. their personal standard failed-- the doubt makes you change the standard and blend in. Once you do this perhaps you do get more success; if you get more success then their is a chance that you take that as 'you aren't smart/good/whatever enough to create or analyze your own values', extremely pessimistic, but if this occurs several times I can understand I know what it's like to be a neurotic mess. Looking at the cup half-full is a challenge at times when you feel (whether you are or not) strange.

  2. #192
    Probably Most Brilliant Craft's Avatar
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    It's rational to conclude that neurosis is expected in Male INTPs. In function terms, we can look at the combination of Inferior Fe and Tertiary Si.

    1. A disinclination to extroverted judgment often proceeds to stress; the lack of mental release inspires unhealthy introverted "loop" activity. IxxP.

    2. A judgment oriented on 'feeling', the more 'softer' way of articulation/application, induces heavier reluctance and filtration because of a worldview reliant on detail. SiFe.

    3. Society.

    1 + 2 + 3 = neurosis.

    The only difference between males and females is societies' attitude towards formats of expression and it's relationship with gender.

    This is probably bullshit but wth.

  3. #193
    Senior Member Robopop's Avatar
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    Sorry but being emotionally volatile or unstable has little to nothing to do with jungian type, you could make an argument for any type(any type can be unhealthy). No one has any proof but small "ancedotal" evidence to support their sayings(and the reasoning makes little sense too). INTPs are rare, do you have a large enough sample size to say such definitive statements, oh "male INTPs are expected to be neurotic", complete rubbish,( I personally with "my ancedotal evidence" usually wouldn't associate being highly neurotic as a common INTP trait, it seems quite strange to me, although the only INTP I know for sure is myself ). In fact, your saying that male INTPs are more neurotic than their female counterparts is very likely to be wrong, considering to women do report and test being more neurotic than men. A certain somebody used the same line of reasoning about ESFPs being unintelligent.
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  4. #194
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    It's true that neuroticism blankets all types, but the type of neuroticism between each one is different, and I do believe that one type of neuroticism can be more severe than another one. To say that all INTP's have the same amount of neuroticism is false, but I'd say we have the same type, which can be quite devastating in its own right. I don't think it's implied that no one but INTP's are neurotic, or that we are more prone. I think it's more that in order to become healthy we have to get past our own 'type' of neuroticism and our neuroticism is that of social anxiety, or pressure to live up to the norms that we try our hardest to ignore and dispel.

  5. #195
    Senior Member Robopop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReflecttcelfeR View Post
    It's true that neuroticism blankets all types, but the type of neuroticism between each one is different, and I do believe that one type of neuroticism can be more severe than another one. To say that all INTP's have the same amount of neuroticism is false, but I'd say we have the same type, which can be quite devastating in its own right. I don't think it's implied that no one but INTP's are neurotic, or that we are more prone. I think it's more that in order to become healthy we have to get past our own 'type' of neuroticism and our neuroticism is that of social anxiety, or pressure to live up to the norms that we try our hardest to ignore and dispel.
    You brought up an interesting point, neuroticism might appear and manifest differently in the various types. Like for instance, a neurotic INTP might appear sullen, depressed, extremely pessimistic and sometimes just plain weird, like my friend who I think is an INTP, I like him really, but he's an emotional mess and is sometimes overly paranoid, that is what makes me(also INTP) so different from him even though we share alot of other personality traits in common, I'm generally calm and untroubled most of the time(and I might appear more "normal" than him), so I look at him like . I have my problems too and I'm kind of cynical but I try to deal with my problems in a rational manner, I've learned some coping mechanisms. I try not to worry about things or circumstances outside of my control, I think about it like a logic problem, look at all my options, choose to best option for the situation, and consider worrying about uncontrollable variables/conditions as "irrational". And really, I have a neutral mood temperament and it is difficult for me to experience any emotion in any high intensity(especially for an long period), this probably makes me very boring.

    I think a highly neurotic ESFP or ENFP might be more obvious than a neurotic INTP or ISTP as introverts tend to interalize their problems more. I'd imagine a neurotic ENFP to be very high-strung, moody, impatient, wild, implusive, in fact, this describes my sister quite well(she is an ENFP). When me and her were growing up she would be very moody, bossy, and snappy, this used to cause alot of fist fights between me and her(and I didn't give a damn if she was a girl). I even questioned her type until I learned ENFPs have Te as a function, as she can be very selfish, bossy, and confrontational, I think she might be in a Ne Te loop. It's like she has some of the negative traits associated with ETJs without the more positive ones. She has calmed down and mellowed out somewhat the older she's gotten and we get along better now.

    And I don't know if most INTPs suffer from social anxiety(this seems to falsely be associated with introverts in general), but some others(like me) might not give a damn . Some on the internet even seem quite proud of their social outcast/nonconformist status.
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  6. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robopop View Post
    You brought up an interesting point, neuroticism might appear and manifest differently in the various types. Like for instance, a neurotic INTP might appear sullen, depressed, extremely pessimistic and sometimes just plain weird, like my friend who I think is an INTP, I like him really, but he's an emotional mess and is sometimes overly paranoid, that is what makes me(also INTP) so different from him even though we share alot of other personality traits in common, I'm generally calm and untroubled most of the time(and I might appear more "normal" than him), so I look at him like . I have my problems too and I'm kind of cynical but I try to deal with my problems in a rational manner, I've learned some coping mechanisms. I try not to worry about things or circumstances outside of my control, I think about it like a logic problem, look at all my options, choose to best option for the situation, and consider worrying about uncontrollable variables/conditions as "irrational". And really, I have a neutral mood temperament and it is difficult for me to experience any emotion in any high intensity(especially for an long period), this probably makes me very boring.

    I think a highly neurotic ESFP or ENFP might be more obvious than a neurotic INTP or ISTP as introverts tend to interalize their problems more. I'd imagine a neurotic ENFP to be very high-strung, moody, impatient, wild, implusive, in fact, this describes my sister quite well(she is an ENFP). When me and her were growing up she would be very moody, bossy, and snappy, this used to cause alot of fist fights between me and her(and I didn't give a damn if she was a girl). I even questioned her type until I learned ENFPs have Te as a function, as she can be very selfish, bossy, and confrontational, I think she might be in a Ne Te loop. It's like she has some of the negative traits associated with ETJs without the more positive ones. She has calmed down and mellowed out somewhat the older she's gotten and we get along better now.

    And I don't know if most INTPs suffer from social anxiety(this seems to falsey be associate with introverts in general), but some others(like me) might not give a damn . Some on the internet even seem quite proud of their social outcast/nonconformist status.
    Exactly. I practice, or try to apply those same coping mechanisms. There is no point in worrying about what you can't control. I have found that this is harder than it looks, but I'm used to it by now as I have practiced for a while now. I agree whole-heartedly on an extravert showing their neuroticism more clearly than an introvert. I think it also has something to do with what the terms mean. You know: E- is directional to the object, and I-towards the person. We internalize it because we see the problem as being fixed when we fix ourselves and the Extravert when they alter the object.

  7. #197
    Consulting Detective Mr. Sherlock Holmes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    Why don't they think they can? I want to get to the bottom of this.
    Is it that they experience persistent rejection when they interact as themselves? I can't see that. You see women on here swooning about INTP guys all the time. It's the same for the ones I know IRL (even the gay ones!) You don't see that for INTP females. Most people think, if we exist at all, that there's something very wrong with us (even INTP men think this!). People tell me all the time that I'm not like anyone they've met before (how much weirder can one get?)
    Well, that's not true. I wish there were more female INTPs.

    I personally never have anyone like me. Perhaps that's because I'm pedantic, eccentric and slightly neurotic. But I know an INXP (can't decide) demale who is really rather popular among the people she talks to.
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  8. #198
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    I've done the research on this.

    I molded myself into a standard cookie-cutter male, and remained that way for about 2 weeks.

    How was it? I believe they call it depression. So much to say about being just the same as everyone else that you see. Just the regular, the long suffering, kind of a fool-- really.

    It wasn't for me.

    Keep dreaming.

  9. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by mysavior View Post
    I've done the research on this.

    I molded myself into a standard cookie-cutter male, and remained that way for about 2 weeks.

    How was it? I believe they call it depression. So much to say about being just the same as everyone else that you see. Just the regular, the long suffering, kind of a fool-- really.

    It wasn't for me.

    Keep dreaming.
    That sounds like an interesting experiment and I would like to hear more about it. What exactly did you do and how did it work out with those around you?
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  10. #200
    Member TacEight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craft View Post
    It's rational to conclude that neurosis is expected in Male INTPs. In function terms, we can look at the combination of Inferior Fe and Tertiary Si.

    1. A disinclination to extroverted judgment often proceeds to stress; the lack of mental release inspires unhealthy introverted "loop" activity. IxxP.

    2. A judgment oriented on 'feeling', the more 'softer' way of articulation/application, induces heavier reluctance and filtration because of a worldview reliant on detail. SiFe.

    3. Society.

    1 + 2 + 3 = neurosis.

    The only difference between males and females is societies' attitude towards formats of expression and it's relationship with gender.

    This is probably bullshit but wth.
    I'd say this helps identify a large portion of difference. (A similar thread on mature men vs. mature women exists here, and includes my thoughts on the matter.)

    In my own instance I'd say that my core belief that change and growth is necessary and perhaps gratifying spurred my "solid" nature, as well as growing up as an INTJ--developing my Te and Ne very thoroughly.

    Still we all have problems. I would suggest (to myself) that my biggest "problem" lies in separating my intense sx/sp "feelings" and "tendencies" when interacting with intellectual women; I have no doubt I can come off as quite the fool when I have little and equal training with my Fi and Fe.

    Again the question becomes "what is mature," or "well adjusted?" I don't consider it a problem, but I'd be happier at home wiki-ing than anywhere outside of my room. I used to consider it a problem that my room and desk are covered in junk 24-7, but now I steal Gandalf's famous quote, and misapply it appropriately: "a wizard's desk is never disorganized; everything is precisely where he means it to be."

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