[NT] Please help me.

[Jonny]

I need an NT to help me. Please.

I believe that no person is actually in control of what he does. He thinks he is in control, but in reality he is only witness to the physical workings of his brain. The perception of choice is really the perception of conflicting preferences, with one preference ultimately manifesting temporary dominance. This idea stems from our understanding of strokes, brain tumors, medications/drugs affecting consciousness. This also stems from the nature of control.

To control, one must have a preference for something, and one must exert some type of force in order to acheive that preference. A rock might cause the death of a person by falling from a ledge onto his head, but we would not say that rock is in control of that person's life. The rock lacks the desire or motivation necessary to be in control. (I'm going to stop you here if you believe the rock was in control, because that belief will not help me with my issues.) Who or what controls preference, that essential part of our understanding of control? If we were to say that we control our preferences, well then we'd need a preference for our preferences. Who controls those? Ultimately it would lead to events prior to our existence, thus removing ultimate control of our lives from our grasp.

I have studied biology extensively, and have a deep grasp of the very basic nature of biological events. I know, for example, that mitochondria do not magically produce ATP and know how to do so. They are simply structured (chemically speaking) in such a way so that the presence of certain external chemicals will result in reactions leading to that production (I won't go into the entire cycle due to a need for brevity). Biologists even go as far as explaining why certain behaviors manifest themselves in humans, and do so from a purely structural standpoint. Why then, if all our parts are considered matter bound by the laws of nature, are humans not viewed as mere matter moving through space, bound by the laws of nature?

These beliefs, that we are nothing but matter, have caused in me a general psychosis, for lack of a better classification. I no longer enjoy school, work, social interactions. I have no motivation to live. I cannot enjoy love, I cannot enjoy sex, and I am brought to mild tears while writing this. I do not think that I am wrong, although I do think I am insane (look up the definition of insane).

What I need from you NTs: Prove me wrong. Show me that we are more. I really want to live again. I don't want to kill myself. Please. I am saying this with utter seriousness. I cannot simply ignore it and live for the moment. There is more, and I really wish I could expain it better, but I am not intelligent enough to do so. I am existentialist to the extreme.

Edit: I see such ignorance in the world. People are so blind to the truths, and for good reason. Those who are not, do not wish to live.

 

[Oaky]

I don't feel like writing a lot so I'll say this. You are not the matter but what runs the matter which is your soul.

 

[Jonny]

I don't feel like writing a lot so I'll say this. You are not the matter but what runs the matter which is your soul.

I do not want a statement, I want proof. You have provided me nothing but evidence of the ignorance of humans. I'm not. however, saying ignorance is not a good thing is this sense.

 

[Oaky]

Alright proof:
- Your mind is not part of matter
- Your emotions are not part of matter
- Your senses are not part of matter
It's impossible to show someone a 'mind', 'emotion' and 'sense' in solid form.
So what are they if they are not matter?

 

[Bushranger]

If you are looking for the soul then I don't think I can help you, I neither believe in the soul, nor do I think it important. I won't try to play shallow word games to trick you back into ignorance.

You are less ignorant. Congratulations, you are now a free agent. Emphasis on the word free. Freedom comes with a cost. The cost is simple, you are now responsible for your own motivation. Movement now requires an active choice from you. Unlike a rock, you get to be the primary instigator of your own destiny.

I no longer enjoy school, work, social interactions. I have no motivation to live. I cannot enjoy love, I cannot enjoy sex, and I am brought to mild tears while writing this. I do not think that I am wrong, although I do think I am insane (look up the definition of insane).

This sounds like one of the classic symptoms of depression. I would tend to believe it to be mostly biochemical in nature. This is a good thing, machines can be recalibrated. You are one of those remarkable machines that can seek its own recalibration. If you feel that you need help then you should seek it (I know that this thread is an attempt to do just that, but if you have full on depression then we can only do so much)

The idea that being "just matter" is somehow a limitation, or an indication that we are not "something more" is in essence laughable. You have reasoned yourself to one conclusion, and then, just stopped. Why? Question your assumptions.
If you want to be more, then be more. You are responsible for your own self actualization.

 

[jenocyde]

I believe that no person is actually in control of what he does...

Ultimately it would lead to events prior to our existence, thus removing ultimate control of our lives from our grasp...

Why then, if all our parts are considered matter bound by the laws of nature, are humans not viewed as mere matter moving through space, bound by the laws of nature?...

These beliefs, that we are nothing but matter, have caused in me a general psychosis, for lack of a better classification...

Show me that we are more. I really want to live again. I don't want to kill myself. Please. I am saying this with utter seriousness...

Why does a lack of control make you want to kill yourself? Why are you focusing only on the brain, and not your bladder, for instance? Is there something specific about the brain that you wish to control that you will not apply to the lungs?

I don't think this issue is something an "NT" can solve for you. Maybe it's better to seek psychological or spiritual guidance? I know this is not the answer you are looking for, but I hope that you can understand that we are a sum of all of our parts. And in turn, we are all parts of something bigger. Because we cannot identify what that is doesn't make this existence any less valid.

I hope you are not serious about that suicide remark, philosophers have been picking at this question for millenia and have still gone on to live fruitful lives.

 

[tinkerbell]

JB

As a thought.......you are pointing yourself at yourself and not at what is around you...

If you really want to discover the meanign of life, go volenteer at a school or home for people with learnign difficulties... see how they view the world and then come back and share...

It would change your view....

 

[Amargith]

I realize you asked for NTs but...

Have you ever realized what a beautiful machine the human really is? The intricate details that make it work? The diversity in which it exists, despite the fact that it's made up from similar building blocks every time it gets build? And those same difference, those unique traits shine through in the processes you described. Sure, they're programmed to react a certain way, but no person is quite like the other. It makes us unique, and gives us a personality. Which also means that there's a gigantic amount of diversity in those things that you claim are predestined and out of our control. Even if that were to be true..that we truly have no control, we're still a wonder to behold. Even as you right now are fighting that very conditioning you claim to have recognized. We're a machine that tries to figure itself out and take charge. Something we're programmed for? Perhaps. But isn't that ironic? And slightly paradoxal?

We humans have yet to build a machine that does that. That has the capacity to not just replicate itself, but allow itself to multiply into great diversity, evolve and eventually question its own existance. I'd say we have not even scratched the surface of the knowledge we'd need for that. I'd wager there's more than what you just lined out to the being we are. For that matter, the entire right half of the brain and it's goal/purpose is still a mystery. We know some of the building blocks used, but the effects they produce, such as self-awareness, emotions, spiritual experiences..

And lastly...life is a journey to experience to the fullest. Who you are will never come back again. Does it really matter how it is you decide and experience things? Does it really matter why things which have meaning to you are your preference? Isn't it just possible to just learn as much as you can and enjoy the experience, gaining new insight along the way? Coz, from what I can tell, looking at history, I'd say that's what we're meant to do with our time here

 

[INTJ123]

well we might be automated atomotons with no control over our fate, but I really think we have freedom of choice, free will, maybe we don't have control over our preferences but we have choice over our ultimate actions. Prove yourself wrong by choosing to live, you seem suicidal.

 

[Kalach]

I'd start with some analogue of the Heisenberg Uncertainty principle: awareness of the existence of cause alters the causal chain, allowing for example, the introduction of countermeasures.

Also, minute awareness of the existence of cause produces minute focus, a suggestion of inescapablility.

And further to also, how uncaused does one want to be? Radical freedom is mere randomness.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Well if means anything to you, you should know that you are not the only one.

I have a something fairly similar going on in my life for a long time now.
To be honest I don't think that any of the two of us is actually insane. In my opinion the only thing that happened to us that our knowledge and understaning has overpowered our natural instinct.

So I would dare to say that I have pretty good understanding of what you are going through. I mean I have accused on more the one occasion that I think and threat people as pawns, chemicals and statistics. (what is actually true by a large dergree).

I never got to the level of depression as you did but I will suggest that you try to do the same thing as I did. Which is that I have started to doubt that there is such a thing as purpose. Since in my opinion even that is just a side-effect of "the chemistry". What means that there is no point in smashing your head into the wall because of this.


But unlike most people here I would not recomment turning towards spirituality since that would probably just be running away. But you will always be aware of the fact that you are running away in this scenario. (Especially since you are an INT.)



I know that coming to full understanding that you "can't trust" you instincts and instinct and phylosophies of others is not easy thing to do an accept.


So in the end I would recommend that you don't try to disprove this on a rational/scientific basis since you will probably sink only deeper into dispair. (in my opinion).

If you have questions about this I am willing to answer.

 

[Jonny]

The idea that being "just matter" is somehow a limitation, or an indication that we are not "something more" is in essence laughable. You have reasoned yourself to one conclusion, and then, just stopped. Why? Question your assumptions.
If you want to be more, then be more. You are responsible for your own self actualization.

This is my issue: most individuals, when confronted with something with which they cannot deal, attempt to flee from it. In this case, that would be fleeing from what I perceive as the truth, in order to gain happiness. I am someone who for whatever reason is not content with happiness, I need something more. I have never enjoyed activities the way others do (this includes everything from sports to video games to community service). I have always been in search of what I perceive to be greater truths of existence. I have a drive to be objective, while at the same time being a structure that is anything but.

Many people who have responded here seem to refuse to acknowledge what I believe is valid reasoning about the nature of control. It is difficult for me to explain in writing, as the understanding requires much intuition and introspection. I will leave the explaination to the first post, and hope that someone will pick up on the ramifications of that reasoning and post an appropriate response.

What is interesting about this is even now I am bound by the desires of humanity. I very much would like to thank everyone for their responses, thereby making a friendly social gesture in an attempt to experience a closeness with other members of the forum. At the same time, I see this desire for what it is, evolutionarily driven, and it disgusts me. I am really not very thankful, and yet would benefit from stating that I am because it would perhaps welcome more people to respond (maybe make me more likeable?). I long to be something more than a fucking selfish monkey who justifies his actions in ways that better suit his selfishness. But the way our current concept of selflessness works, one must in essense be selfish for another person to be considered selfless. If I donate a kidney to help a dying child, I am in essense doing the same thing as if the child were selfish and demanded the kidney from me. Why is it that people who give up parts of themselves for others are considered so great? It is because people enjoy the fact that there are people like that, all the more for them.

 

[Jaguar]

At the same time, I see this desire for what it is, evolutionarily driven, and it disgusts me. [...]

If I donate a kidney to help a dying child, I am in essense doing the same thing as if the child were selfish and demanded the kidney from me. Why is it that people who give up parts of themselves for others are considered so great? It is because people enjoy the fact that there are people like that, all the more for them.

Then get the show on the road little monkey.
Change the title of your thread. It's unmitigated fraud.

 

[Jonny]

Then get the show on the road little monkey.
Change the title of your thread. It's unmitigated fraud.

Bemused pussycat? Would you be honest for a moment, and let me in on what emotions led you to respond to this thread? Annoyance, disguist, jealousy, the drive to stop that which is beyond your understanding? I am prepared for any answer, even no answer. Does that last sentence change what you were going to do/say? Did that last sentence change it once again? I am genuinely curious, what drove you to respond the way you did? Are going to further facilitate your agenda within your response to this question? Are you going to be genuinely introspective and tell as close to the truth as is possible? Are you going to do both? Can they be the same?

 

[Jaguar]

Bemused pussycat? Would you be honest for a moment, and let me in on what emotions led you to respond to this thread? Annoyance, disguist, jealousy, the drive to stop that which is beyond your understanding? I am prepared for any answer, even no answer. Does that last sentence change what you were going to do/say? Did that last sentence change it once again? I am genuinely curious, what drove you to respond the way you did? Are going to further facilitate your agenda within your response to this question? Are you going to be genuinely introspective and tell as close to the truth as is possible? Are you going to do both? Can they be the same?

You're not even remotely intuitive.
The letter N doesn't make it true.

 

[Kalach]

What is interesting about this is even now I am bound by the desires of humanity. I very much would like to thank everyone for their responses, thereby making a friendly social gesture in an attempt to experience a closeness with other members of the forum. At the same time, I see this desire for what it is, evolutionarily driven, and it disgusts me. I am really not very thankful, and yet would benefit from stating that I am because it would perhaps welcome more people to respond (maybe make me more likeable?).

Kvestchuan: all people have this evolutionary mechanism? If it's an evolutionary mechanism, then presumably they should have. Would you like to disprove its general existence? Meet some INTJs.

May I respectfully suggest for consideration this is an Fe issue? Dealing with it as meaningful.

(But then again, one may reply saying, sure, it's Fe in this case, but even Fi was created for some ultimately individually vacuous evolutionary purpose. However, if you find the argument going up to that level of generality, are you still interested in developing it?)

 

[Jonny]

You're not even remotely intuitive.
The letter N doesn't make it true.

I may or may not be intuitive. But in the context of MBTI, I am assuredly INTP. In any event, agenda preserved.

 

[Athenian200]

I am not an NT, so you should probably disregard my response. Nonetheless, I'm going to respond anyway, because I wish to display my thoughts on this issue somewhere where they might be read by any interested party.

I will say that you are correct about the nature of existence. However, the perspective you take on the issue makes very little sense to me. You seem to be dwelling on the fact that things do not have inherent value and lamenting this fact. Why do you need for things to have value? Why do you need control? The truth is, you don't need control and you don't need value. Your depression is the result of the illusion that you need those things.

If you know that people's minds are operated by biological processes and have no control, then you should realize that the need for control you're experiencing is actually the need for the illusion of control that you see in others. The truth is that the mind requires illusions in order to motivate itself to sustain it's own existence. In fact, I believe that the mind can only operate in terms of illusions, because it is not sophisticated enough to understand things as they really are, nor should it attempt to do so. You are the unfortunate victim of your intelligence.

I will now unseat one of your illusions in order to allow you to develop others, however. If your ability to see through illusions and tendency to value truth has resulted in depression, why then do you value truth? Can you not see that valuing truth is actually detrimental to your well-being? You are in the middle of your own delusion that the truth of something is what determines its value, but it does not. Truth only describes, it doesn't assign value, or at least it shouldn't. The fact that you are seeking help rather than passively accepting this tells us that you value your own well-being regardless of how illogical this is, thus you should begin to orient your truths around that basis. Now that you know this, to do otherwise is to waste resources.

Value is a human-defined concept, just as all structures are. In order to learn how values operate in humans, examine the people around you. Notice that they all have motivations derived from instinct, which is ultimately the source of all motivation. You can accept this, or you can destroy yourself in order to be (ironically, irrationally) faithful to your intellect. I cannot tell you which master to serve, you must choose. If you wish to be motivated, you must allow your intellect to submit to your instincts, orienting itself in terms of them, and not the other way around.

Now, I will offer some ideas that may help you get started in this direction. Look at the way you think. Does it benefit you? Does it benefit others? Your perspective, regardless of it's truth, is worthless because it produces nothing, and can only produce nothing. You need to understand that value is not produced by pure thought, theoretical understanding, or logical consistency, but by results and achievement. Only truths that have an impact on reality can ever be known to be true, and the kind of truths you look at can never impact reality because they are completely dependent upon perspective and assumption. The line of thought you have produced here cannot do that in any way, shape, or form, and thus it is irrelevant. Find another thread to focus on, and the motivation will come. Stop serving your intellect like a slave, and force IT to serve YOU, or at the very least force it to serve others if you can't stomach that kind of selfishness. Realize that it is not you.

Also, your beliefs about the nature of reality cannot be assumed correct. How many beliefs have been overturned in the past? How do you know that all the assumptions and reasoning you've just formulated about the nature of reality and people are not as wrong-headed as the assumption that the sun revolves around the earth? All your thoughts are based on trusting in the truth of the structures others have created, such as philosophy and science. But you have not personally verified any of these truths, so you don't really know anything, do you? If you would simply quit arrogantly trusting your own assumptions and reasoning, you would find that you have a lot of research and experimenting to do. At the very least, you should keep learning, keep trying to make sense of reality. You don't know what you'll find unless you keep at it. You can't imagine every possibility, even if it seems like you can.

Now... are you going to be the master of your intellect, or are you going to let it be the master of you?

Does that make sense?

 

[Jonny]

Kvestchuan: all people have this evolutionary mechanism? If it's an evolutionary mechanism, then presumably they should have. Would you like to disprove its general existence? Meet some INTJs.

May I respectfully suggest for consideration this is an Fe issue? Dealing with it as meaningful.

(But then again, one may reply saying, sure, it's Fe in this case, but even Fi was created for some ultimately individually vacuous evolutionary purpose. However, if you find the argument going up to that level of generality, are you still interested in developing it?)

I am confused by this statement. If you would, please rephrase it.

 

[SilkRoad]

Really, I am surprised that no more people have said this: the thing that concerns me the most about your post, regardless of what you think may have triggered your feelings, is that you have no pleasure any more in the normal things of life, and you are feeling suicidal.

I doubt that this is caused by purely philosophical questions - it does sound as though you are depressed. I hope that if this is the case you will seek help - please don't let suicidal feelings fester inside you without seeking help.