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Thread: Please help me.

  1. #31
    null Jonny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Intricate Mystic View Post

    Have you ever read the book, Descarte's Error: Emotion, Reason and the Human Brain? It gives evidence that rational thinking is not possible without the input of emotion.

    I agree entirely. Those individuals who are rational, cold, and logical are ultimately driven by the emotional desire to be those things. My problem is my logical conclusions and my desire to be logical conflict with my other desires. It's an obsession.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  2. #32
    Senior Member Habba's Avatar
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    To the thread starting post:

    I'm no NT, and no master of biology, but I have shared your thoughts more than once. Well, mostly on the first part about people being nothing but matter and free will an illusion. More than once I've have had thoughts of people just being highly complex biological machines.

    I think there's no way trying to reason your way out here. Rather than trying to prove these facts wrong, you could start living with the facts. There are things far more important than mere facts. Feelings and appearance for instance. How you feel about a fact is much much more important than the fact itself. How the facts appear to you are also far more important than the facts itself.

    I think it's a common trait in N people to become depressed because they can see what's beyond everything. It's like finding out how magician does his tricks. Tricks are great and intriguing as long as you can't understand them. But once you do, tricks lose all the glory.

    And you say you try to be objective. Why is that? Why not subjective? For what I understand, being subjective makes things feel more valuable. Objectivity takes this subjective value away, giving nothing in return. It's like watching football between team A and team B. It's a completely another story when it's your own team versus your rival team.

    What I'm trying to say here, is that maybe change of perspective would be in place here. You sound like a highly intelligent person, capable of solving any given logical problem. But there's so much more to life than just mere logic... I had to find out that myself (depression, dropping out of school, break-up, yadayada...).

    I hope you can find the help you need. It's not that easy, I know.
    "The present is theirs; the future, for which I have really worked, is mine."
    -Nikola Tesla

  3. #33
    ..... Intricate Mystic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnyboy View Post
    I agree entirely. Those individuals who are rational, cold, and logical are ultimately driven by the emotional desire to be those things. My problem is my logical conclusions and my desire to be logical conflict with my other desires. It's an obsession.
    What are your other desires? What do you think would happen if you could stop the obsessive thinking and let your other desires take priority?

  4. #34
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnyboy View Post
    I don't know if my need for justice is irrational, but it is indeed emotional. I hate that need. I wish it were gone. I feel as though I am both an NF and an NT, and that each fights for control on a daily basis. The NF longs for fairness and happiness and love, but the NT sees these things as inherently meaningless. They are only given meaning when they are put in the context of achieving some particular end, but that end is itself meaningless in the big scheme of things.

    I have a desire to have sex with my girlfriend, and then I see myself as a fucking dog humping a leg when I do so. I have a desire for friendship, but I see myself as a monkey picking grubs off of another's back when I engage in ultimately-biological-meaningless-bonding-talk. I have a desire to achieve greatness, but I see myself as a weak person seeking the approval of my peers. I have a desire to know, but I see knowledge as meaningless if it serves no purpose but to be present in my physical brain, then rot away after death. I have a desire for purose, but I see purpose as purposeless.
    Aha! We come to the root of your dilemma. You wish to avoid condescending to the level of an animal, because you have a belief that humans can be better than animals on some level. What you don't realize, is that in terms of motivations, humans have never been better than animals. Our superiority to them has always been intellectual, specifically in terms of creating things and plans, not moral. In terms of desires, we are, after all, equal to animals. Why must this be shameful to you?

    Humans are social animals, like the monkeys you just described. Why is to weak to acquiesce to that fact and behave like an animal with an animal's purpose, but strong to fight it? It isn't... Ironically, by finding fault with the simplicity of what tends to be meaningful, you are attesting to the irrational belief that meaning should exist in a higher form. But ask yourself... why shouldn't such simple motivations be good enough for you? Why do you need to be better than an animal? Isn't THAT very motivation something you learned from society, rather than something that comes from within, or even a truth?

    The point is, whether you kill yourself or stay alive, whether you keep this belief or abandon it, you are still a part of whatever you're talking about. So, why not embrace it? Just... stop listening to your intellect in regards to such things. I'm saying, have sex with your girlfriend, make friends, and aspire to greatness. Feel sad if you get dumped, worry about what they think of you, get frustrated when you can't get what you want. Because that's who you are, regardless of how pathetic it is logically. There's no point in using logic to run away from it. In fact, to run away from it is to be MORE dishonest than to accept it.

  5. #35
    AKA Nunki Polaris's Avatar
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    I don't get why you think NTs are the only ones who can help you with this.

    Your problem, and this may be the hardest thing for an INTP to accept, is that you're over-intellectualizing life. Life does not fit inside an equation; an equation fits inside life. The moment you reverse this rule and reduce your existence to a string of numbers, you lose touch with reality and lock yourself in a prison of your own making.

    You need to experience life in its purest essence, and to do that, you turn off your brain and take things at face value. In real life--not the explanations in your head--you experience yourself as free; and in real life--not the explanations in your head--you are a being, not a collection of cells. You bring yourself down to the purest mode of consciousness and strip everything else away*; and from this viewpoint, the world transforms. Suddenly you realize that there are a hundred, a million, a thousand different paths you can take. Life forbids nothing; only you do.

    So why would you convince yourself that you're a lump of molecules with no free will? That viewpoint might earn you a degree in physics, but it won't make life a pleasant experience.

    *Consider this a focal device, not something you can actually attain. The purpose of this focal device is not to eliminate ideas, since ideas constitute awareness, but rather to know that these ideas are flux and flexible.
    [ Ni > Ti > Fe > Fi > Ne > Te > Si > Se ][ 4w5 sp/sx ][ RLOAI ][ IEI-Ni ]

  6. #36
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nunki View Post
    Your problem, and this may be the hardest thing for an INTP to accept, is that you're over-intellectualizing life. Life does not fit inside an equation; an equation fits inside life. The moment you reverse this rule and reduce your existence to a string of numbers, you lose touch with reality and lock yourself in a prison of your own making.

    You need to experience life in its purest essence, and to do that, you turn off your brain and take things at face value. In real life--not the explanations in your head--you experience yourself as free; and in real life--not the explanations in your head--you are a being, not a collection of cells. You bring yourself down to the purest mode of consciousness and strip everything else away*; and from this viewpoint, the world transforms. Suddenly you realize that there are a hundred, a million, a thousand different paths you can take. Life forbids nothing; only you do.

    So why would you convince yourself that you're a lump of molecules with no free will? That viewpoint might earn you a degree in physics, but it won't make life a pleasant experience.

    *Consider this a focal device, not something you can actually attain. The purpose of this focal device is not to eliminate ideas, since ideas constitute awareness, but rather to know that these ideas are flux and flexible.
    Wow. I'm impressed.
    (Honestly.)

    Let's see what he does with it.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #37
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragingkatsuki View Post
    Alright proof:
    - Your mind is not part of matter
    - Your emotions are not part of matter
    - Your senses are not part of matter
    It's impossible to show someone a 'mind', 'emotion' and 'sense' in solid form.
    So what are they if they are not matter?
    That's fucking stupid.
    The good old argument of 'green is in your head' doesn't connect with dualism. And dualism is more similar to comedy than philosophy to begin with.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

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  8. #38
    Senior Member Habba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nunki View Post
    blah blah blah
    This was exactly what I was thinking with my post, except better expressed by far.
    "The present is theirs; the future, for which I have really worked, is mine."
    -Nikola Tesla

  9. #39
    Listening Oaky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    That's fucking stupid.
    The good old argument of 'green is in your head' doesn't connect with dualism. And dualism is more similar to comedy than philosophy to begin with.
    He wanted proof. I gave proof. If he doesn't want to believe it, it's his choice. Same goes for anyone else. Also, if your going to quote me you might at least try and answer the question.

  10. #40
    Senior Member Two Point Two's Avatar
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    There's a difference between recognising that everything is evolved, determined, random and meaningless, and attaching value to the fact that everything is evolved, determined, random and meaningless. And if you're attaching value, you're doing so from within the framework of things having meaning and purpose. If objective reality is the way you think it is, this is neither good nor bad - it just is. Valuing it only exists within the illusion.

    Of course, the illusion is part of the objective reality, too - it's chemichal, electrical, subatomic, etc., but it is real, as what it is. So the valuing that humans do is real, if physical, and it's a part of objective reality. If humans attribute purpose to something, then even if this act is determined and physical, that doesn't make it any less a purpose-attribution.

    Personally, the way I deal with these thoughts is by recognising that it doesn't matter if all of experiential existence is determined or random, evolved, purposeless, etc. The fact remains that there is experience, there is something it is like to value things and attribute meaning to them, and whatever that actually is, it can be nice. If reality allows happiness to exist by chance and not because there are immortal souls or what have you, then so be it - happiness still exists. And that seems to me to be enough.

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