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Thread: Please help me.

  1. #21
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    ^ Suicidal people don't create threads like this.

  2. #22
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    ^ Suicidal people don't create threads like this.
    Maybe he's not suicidal, but not having pleasure in anything is also a sign of severe depression.

    I know people who've killed themselves and people who've been thinking about it seriously. (They are often also still capable of philosophizing.) So this tends to be my main concern with posts like these.

  3. #23
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Been there, done that.

    You're on the right path.

    You've seen the truth according to your old way of doing things, and have taken your beliefs to their logical conclusion.

    Now you do your business or you get off the pot.

    If you can't learn to evaluate life differently, then yeah, you're going to be existentially depressed for the rest of it.... however short or long it is. You have a chance here to grow and change and learn to see life in a new way, and to use different criteria to make some of your decisions and become healthier and more well-rounded in the process... or you can quit.

    I mean, really, if none of this matters, if you're in control, if you firmly believe it's all biological processes at core level and that drives all behavior directly... why are you bothering to post here and ask for help? None of it matters anyway. (Unless of course, you can't help but post since you're driven to do so.) Nothing we tell you can fix everything. Why should we even care to invest in you?

    Thus, rationally, either that frame of reality is the predominate one and the correct one (whereupon you think your life has no value)... or there are other frames that you have to learn to see within. You just can't envision them yet. I think you're not going to find yourself until you give yourself away.

    It's up to you.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #24
    null Jonny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I am not an NT, so you should probably disregard my response... Does that make sense?

    I do not value truth, I do not disvalue truth. I see truth as holding value depending on what goals one wishes to achieve. You say what I do has no value, but what is value? Value is relative, and due to my impulse to be impossibly objective, nothing I see has value. I have a dichotomy of character. A need to have a purpose for everything that I do, but a realization that purpose is itself created by man's desire. How can I justify any action when that action is based on something that is unjustifiable, my own desire. If desire were the only justification, then it should be justifiable to rape, to murder, to torture a child into committing suicide, as long as such a thing was desirable to the person performing the action.

    There is an inherent unfairness to the universe which I can no longer stand. Our society will punish some for actions while at the same time attempt to help others who perform the very same actions. Justification for this is proximity to the majority. If I were to kill a bunch of people, but it was discovered that I had an operable brain tumor in the part of my brain controlling aggression and self control, people might sympathize and let me off the hook. "Gosh, I could see something like that happening to myself." However, if what led me to perform such an action could not be distinguished, or was perhaps related to a abnormalities in my brain that the majority could reasonably assume would not befall them, then I would be sent away for life. In both circumstances, the cause of such actions would be structural, and theoretically curable. But, we treat them differently. It is really just people being pissed off and wanting to punish someone. There is no justice.

    I do not need to experiment with my beliefs about control and the nature of humanity to know of their truth. I think if you were to deeply examine your own motivations, the way you "make decisions" you would agree with my understanding. You may not be obsessed with it, but you would concur.

    I am disguised by myself, and I am disguised with humanity. I do appreciate your intelligence, however.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  5. #25
    null Jonny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    Maybe he's not suicidal, but not having pleasure in anything is also a sign of severe depression.

    I know people who've killed themselves and people who've been thinking about it seriously. (They are often also still capable of philosophizing.) So this tends to be my main concern with posts like these.
    I'm not going to commit suicide. I might end up in a mental hospital, but I will not kill myself. I defintely am not looking for sympathy, just posts like a few posted above.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  6. #26
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnyboy View Post
    I am confused by this statement. If you would, please rephrase it.
    Basically, you say this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnyboy View Post
    What is interesting about this is even now I am bound by the desires of humanity. I very much would like to thank everyone for their responses, thereby making a friendly social gesture in an attempt to experience a closeness with other members of the forum. At the same time, I see this desire for what it is, evolutionarily driven, and it disgusts me. I am really not very thankful, and yet would benefit from stating that I am because it would perhaps welcome more people to respond (maybe make me more likeable?).
    And I say it reads like you have textbook extraverted feeling, and (fortunately or unfortunately) you seriously question the authenticity of the feeling.

    A whole bunch of MBTI model theory says that's to be expected, Fe being way down the function order and therefore, as far as conscious identity goes, subject to the disdain of the higher functions. One can end up saying of the inferior function, "that's not me, it's not real."

    It's worth exploring if only because some day some ENFJ is going to latch on to you and exactly that question of feeling authenticity is what you'll be called upon to answer just to be able to deal with her.

    Courage, lad! They're beasts that believe everyone else are the beasts, and when you get the question of feeling right, you'll be just the beast for them.

  7. #27
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnyboy View Post
    I do not value truth, I do not disvalue truth. I see truth as holding value depending on what goals one wishes to achieve. You say what I do has no value, but what is value? Value is relative, and due to my impulse to be impossibly objective, nothing I see has value. I have a dichotomy of character. A need to have a purpose for everything that I do, but a realization that purpose is itself created by man's desire. How can I justify any action when that action is based on something that is unjustifiable, my own desire. If desire were the only justification, then it should be justifiable to rape, to murder, to torture a child into committing suicide, as long as such a thing was desirable to the person performing the action.

    There is an inherent unfairness to the universe which I can no longer stand. Our society will punish some for actions while at the same time attempt to help others who perform the very same actions. Justification for this is proximity to the majority. If I were to kill a bunch of people, but it was discovered that I had an operable brain tumor in the part of my brain controlling aggression and self control, people might sympathize and let me off the hook. "Gosh, I could see something like that happening to myself." However, if what led me to perform such an action could not be distinguished, or was perhaps related to a abnormalities in my brain that the majority could reasonably assume would not befall them, then I would be sent away for life. In both circumstances, the cause of such actions would be structural, and theoretically curable. But, we treat them differently. It is really just people being pissed off and wanting to punish someone. There is no justice.

    I do not need to experiment with my beliefs about control and the nature of humanity to know of their truth. I think if you were to deeply examine your own motivations, the way you "make decisions" you would agree with my understanding. You may not be obsessed with it, but you would concur.

    I am disguised by myself, and I am disguised with humanity. I do appreciate your intelligence, however.
    I actually do concur. There is no justice. But is not your need for justice just as irrational as the will which you're opposing? It is certainly just as artificial a concept as will, if not more so. Can you not simply accept that life is unfair, and that you must act in accordance with something that is unfair, because that is the kind of world you live in? If you cannot, you're simply being idealistic and silly.

    Sometimes, injustice/imbalance is the only thing that produces results and understanding. Justice is balanced, and thus often results in stagnation. Imbalance produces movement and change, balance produces stagnation.

    If you are truly curious, you should be willing to accept, and possibly even cause, injustice in order to satisfy your curiosity. I believe that's what the creators of this world did, and I can understand why.

  8. #28
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnyboy View Post
    I may or may not be intuitive. But in the context of MBTI, I am assuredly INTP. In any event, agenda preserved.
    The only agenda in this thread is yours.
    I assure you, it won't be preserved.

  9. #29
    ..... Intricate Mystic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnyboy View Post

    What is interesting about this is even now I am bound by the desires of humanity. I very much would like to thank everyone for their responses, thereby making a friendly social gesture in an attempt to experience a closeness with other members of the forum. At the same time, I see this desire for what it is, evolutionarily driven, and it disgusts me. I am really not very thankful, and yet would benefit from stating that I am because it would perhaps welcome more people to respond (maybe make me more likable?). I long to be something more than a fucking selfish monkey who justifies his actions in ways that better suit his selfishness. But the way our current concept of selflessness works, one must in essence be selfish for another person to be considered selfless. If I donate a kidney to help a dying child, I am in essense doing the same thing as if the child were selfish and demanded the kidney from me. Why is it that people who give up parts of themselves for others are considered so great? It is because people enjoy the fact that there are people like that, all the more for them.
    If you donate a kidney to someone, it is an act of love. The recipient is receiving a gift that allows them to live. I expect that they don't feel selfish.... they would feel extremely grateful and humbled by such a gift. People enjoy the fact that there are generous, kind people in the world because it is evidence of love in the world. It is humanity at it's best.

    Have you ever read the book, Descarte's Error: Emotion, Reason and the Human Brain? It gives evidence that rational thinking is not possible without the input of emotion. You seem somewhat devoid of emotion... you have, as you said, "never enjoyed activities as others do", so you are devoid of joy? I think that this is where your problem lies.... in the realm of feelings. If you are depressed (which I think you are), your ability to feel anything is restricted, therefore your reasoning ability is faulty as well. We are NOT pure thinking. That is abnormal.

  10. #30
    null Jonny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I actually do concur. There is no justice. But is not your need for justice just as irrational as the will which you're opposing? It is certainly just as artificial a concept as will, if not more so. Can you not simply accept that life is unfair, and that you must act in accordance with something that is unfair, because that is the kind of world you live in? If you cannot, you're simply being idealistic and silly.

    Sometimes, injustice/imbalance is the only thing that produces results and understanding. Justice is balanced, and thus often results in stagnation.
    I don't know if my need for justice is irrational, but it is indeed emotional. I hate that need. I wish it were gone. I feel as though I am both an NF and an NT, and that each fights for control on a daily basis. The NF longs for fairness and happiness and love, but the NT sees these things as inherently meaningless. They are only given meaning when they are put in the context of achieving some particular end, but that end is itself meaningless in the big scheme of things.

    I have a desire to have sex with my girlfriend, and then I see myself as a fucking dog humping a leg when I do so. I have a desire for friendship, but I see myself as a monkey picking grubs off of another's back when I engage in ultimately-biological-meaningless-bonding-talk. I have a desire to achieve greatness, but I see myself as a weak person seeking the approval of my peers. I have a desire to know, but I see knowledge as meaningless if it serves no purpose but to be present in my physical brain, then rot away after death. I have a desire for purose, but I see purpose as purposeless.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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