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Thread: Please help me.

  1. #11
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Well if means anything to you, you should know that you are not the only one.

    I have a something fairly similar going on in my life for a long time now.
    To be honest I don't think that any of the two of us is actually insane. In my opinion the only thing that happened to us that our knowledge and understaning has overpowered our natural instinct.

    So I would dare to say that I have pretty good understanding of what you are going through. I mean I have accused on more the one occasion that I think and threat people as pawns, chemicals and statistics. (what is actually true by a large dergree).

    I never got to the level of depression as you did but I will suggest that you try to do the same thing as I did. Which is that I have started to doubt that there is such a thing as purpose. Since in my opinion even that is just a side-effect of "the chemistry". What means that there is no point in smashing your head into the wall because of this.


    But unlike most people here I would not recomment turning towards spirituality since that would probably just be running away. But you will always be aware of the fact that you are running away in this scenario. (Especially since you are an INT.)



    I know that coming to full understanding that you "can't trust" you instincts and instinct and phylosophies of others is not easy thing to do an accept.


    So in the end I would recommend that you don't try to disprove this on a rational/scientific basis since you will probably sink only deeper into dispair. (in my opinion).

    If you have questions about this I am willing to answer.

  2. #12
    null Jonny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushranger View Post
    The idea that being "just matter" is somehow a limitation, or an indication that we are not "something more" is in essence laughable. You have reasoned yourself to one conclusion, and then, just stopped. Why? Question your assumptions.
    If you want to be more, then be more. You are responsible for your own self actualization.
    This is my issue: most individuals, when confronted with something with which they cannot deal, attempt to flee from it. In this case, that would be fleeing from what I perceive as the truth, in order to gain happiness. I am someone who for whatever reason is not content with happiness, I need something more. I have never enjoyed activities the way others do (this includes everything from sports to video games to community service). I have always been in search of what I perceive to be greater truths of existence. I have a drive to be objective, while at the same time being a structure that is anything but.

    Many people who have responded here seem to refuse to acknowledge what I believe is valid reasoning about the nature of control. It is difficult for me to explain in writing, as the understanding requires much intuition and introspection. I will leave the explaination to the first post, and hope that someone will pick up on the ramifications of that reasoning and post an appropriate response.

    What is interesting about this is even now I am bound by the desires of humanity. I very much would like to thank everyone for their responses, thereby making a friendly social gesture in an attempt to experience a closeness with other members of the forum. At the same time, I see this desire for what it is, evolutionarily driven, and it disgusts me. I am really not very thankful, and yet would benefit from stating that I am because it would perhaps welcome more people to respond (maybe make me more likeable?). I long to be something more than a fucking selfish monkey who justifies his actions in ways that better suit his selfishness. But the way our current concept of selflessness works, one must in essense be selfish for another person to be considered selfless. If I donate a kidney to help a dying child, I am in essense doing the same thing as if the child were selfish and demanded the kidney from me. Why is it that people who give up parts of themselves for others are considered so great? It is because people enjoy the fact that there are people like that, all the more for them.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  3. #13
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnyboy View Post
    At the same time, I see this desire for what it is, evolutionarily driven, and it disgusts me. [...]

    If I donate a kidney to help a dying child, I am in essense doing the same thing as if the child were selfish and demanded the kidney from me. Why is it that people who give up parts of themselves for others are considered so great? It is because people enjoy the fact that there are people like that, all the more for them.

    Then get the show on the road little monkey.
    Change the title of your thread. It's unmitigated fraud.

  4. #14
    null Jonny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Then get the show on the road little monkey.
    Change the title of your thread. It's unmitigated fraud.
    Bemused pussycat? Would you be honest for a moment, and let me in on what emotions led you to respond to this thread? Annoyance, disguist, jealousy, the drive to stop that which is beyond your understanding? I am prepared for any answer, even no answer. Does that last sentence change what you were going to do/say? Did that last sentence change it once again? I am genuinely curious, what drove you to respond the way you did? Are going to further facilitate your agenda within your response to this question? Are you going to be genuinely introspective and tell as close to the truth as is possible? Are you going to do both? Can they be the same?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  5. #15
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnyboy View Post
    Bemused pussycat? Would you be honest for a moment, and let me in on what emotions led you to respond to this thread? Annoyance, disguist, jealousy, the drive to stop that which is beyond your understanding? I am prepared for any answer, even no answer. Does that last sentence change what you were going to do/say? Did that last sentence change it once again? I am genuinely curious, what drove you to respond the way you did? Are going to further facilitate your agenda within your response to this question? Are you going to be genuinely introspective and tell as close to the truth as is possible? Are you going to do both? Can they be the same?
    You're not even remotely intuitive.
    The letter N doesn't make it true.

  6. #16
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnyboy View Post
    What is interesting about this is even now I am bound by the desires of humanity. I very much would like to thank everyone for their responses, thereby making a friendly social gesture in an attempt to experience a closeness with other members of the forum. At the same time, I see this desire for what it is, evolutionarily driven, and it disgusts me. I am really not very thankful, and yet would benefit from stating that I am because it would perhaps welcome more people to respond (maybe make me more likeable?).
    Kvestchuan: all people have this evolutionary mechanism? If it's an evolutionary mechanism, then presumably they should have. Would you like to disprove its general existence? Meet some INTJs.

    May I respectfully suggest for consideration this is an Fe issue? Dealing with it as meaningful.

    (But then again, one may reply saying, sure, it's Fe in this case, but even Fi was created for some ultimately individually vacuous evolutionary purpose. However, if you find the argument going up to that level of generality, are you still interested in developing it?)

  7. #17
    null Jonny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    You're not even remotely intuitive.
    The letter N doesn't make it true.
    I may or may not be intuitive. But in the context of MBTI, I am assuredly INTP. In any event, agenda preserved.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  8. #18
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    I am not an NT, so you should probably disregard my response. Nonetheless, I'm going to respond anyway, because I wish to display my thoughts on this issue somewhere where they might be read by any interested party.

    I will say that you are correct about the nature of existence. However, the perspective you take on the issue makes very little sense to me. You seem to be dwelling on the fact that things do not have inherent value and lamenting this fact. Why do you need for things to have value? Why do you need control? The truth is, you don't need control and you don't need value. Your depression is the result of the illusion that you need those things.

    If you know that people's minds are operated by biological processes and have no control, then you should realize that the need for control you're experiencing is actually the need for the illusion of control that you see in others. The truth is that the mind requires illusions in order to motivate itself to sustain it's own existence. In fact, I believe that the mind can only operate in terms of illusions, because it is not sophisticated enough to understand things as they really are, nor should it attempt to do so. You are the unfortunate victim of your intelligence.

    I will now unseat one of your illusions in order to allow you to develop others, however. If your ability to see through illusions and tendency to value truth has resulted in depression, why then do you value truth? Can you not see that valuing truth is actually detrimental to your well-being? You are in the middle of your own delusion that the truth of something is what determines its value, but it does not. Truth only describes, it doesn't assign value, or at least it shouldn't. The fact that you are seeking help rather than passively accepting this tells us that you value your own well-being regardless of how illogical this is, thus you should begin to orient your truths around that basis. Now that you know this, to do otherwise is to waste resources.

    Value is a human-defined concept, just as all structures are. In order to learn how values operate in humans, examine the people around you. Notice that they all have motivations derived from instinct, which is ultimately the source of all motivation. You can accept this, or you can destroy yourself in order to be (ironically, irrationally) faithful to your intellect. I cannot tell you which master to serve, you must choose. If you wish to be motivated, you must allow your intellect to submit to your instincts, orienting itself in terms of them, and not the other way around.

    Now, I will offer some ideas that may help you get started in this direction. Look at the way you think. Does it benefit you? Does it benefit others? Your perspective, regardless of it's truth, is worthless because it produces nothing, and can only produce nothing. You need to understand that value is not produced by pure thought, theoretical understanding, or logical consistency, but by results and achievement. Only truths that have an impact on reality can ever be known to be true, and the kind of truths you look at can never impact reality because they are completely dependent upon perspective and assumption. The line of thought you have produced here cannot do that in any way, shape, or form, and thus it is irrelevant. Find another thread to focus on, and the motivation will come. Stop serving your intellect like a slave, and force IT to serve YOU, or at the very least force it to serve others if you can't stomach that kind of selfishness. Realize that it is not you.

    Also, your beliefs about the nature of reality cannot be assumed correct. How many beliefs have been overturned in the past? How do you know that all the assumptions and reasoning you've just formulated about the nature of reality and people are not as wrong-headed as the assumption that the sun revolves around the earth? All your thoughts are based on trusting in the truth of the structures others have created, such as philosophy and science. But you have not personally verified any of these truths, so you don't really know anything, do you? If you would simply quit arrogantly trusting your own assumptions and reasoning, you would find that you have a lot of research and experimenting to do. At the very least, you should keep learning, keep trying to make sense of reality. You don't know what you'll find unless you keep at it. You can't imagine every possibility, even if it seems like you can.

    Now... are you going to be the master of your intellect, or are you going to let it be the master of you?

    Does that make sense?

  9. #19
    null Jonny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Kvestchuan: all people have this evolutionary mechanism? If it's an evolutionary mechanism, then presumably they should have. Would you like to disprove its general existence? Meet some INTJs.

    May I respectfully suggest for consideration this is an Fe issue? Dealing with it as meaningful.

    (But then again, one may reply saying, sure, it's Fe in this case, but even Fi was created for some ultimately individually vacuous evolutionary purpose. However, if you find the argument going up to that level of generality, are you still interested in developing it?)
    I am confused by this statement. If you would, please rephrase it.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  10. #20
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Really, I am surprised that no more people have said this: the thing that concerns me the most about your post, regardless of what you think may have triggered your feelings, is that you have no pleasure any more in the normal things of life, and you are feeling suicidal.

    I doubt that this is caused by purely philosophical questions - it does sound as though you are depressed. I hope that if this is the case you will seek help - please don't let suicidal feelings fester inside you without seeking help.

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