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[NT] Learning to screw up....

tinkerbell

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Something that seems to be coming through from folks recently is the fear of screwing up - or being seen to screw up.

An example of what I mean
I work in a fairly fast paced enviroment and I've worked hard to encourage my team to foster a culture of excellence.. In order to make this a reality it's neessesary to make the culture equaly supportive of screwing up...

The whole thought behind this is you are not pushing beyond your comfort zones if you are not screwing up occationally... Which may appear counter intuative.. but better to be hauling people out of trouble than having to push them to do stuff.. Yes the idea is not haivng to haul them out of trouble but the bottom line is fostering of bravery of the attempt.....


But don't limit yourselfs to work - I mean life too....
Anyone got view on screwing up, making yourself more comfortable with fear of failure, encouraging yourself to be brave or do things you normally wouldn't do.

Some possible examples
Chatting to the girl in the shop
Asking someone out
Moving countrys
Leaving your partner
Quitting your job

Things stop you doing stuff you want to do... what helps you feel the fear and do it anyways (sorry thats the title of a book)
 

luminous beam

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I think how "courageous" a co-worker should be depends on his role within the company. If he/she has a role where the company would benefit from them taking risks, despite making potential mistakes, then they should be motivated to do so. However, if you have a company and employees required to follow regulations and procedures, I would discourage adamant risk taking. Usually, CEOs, managers and supervisors are left to make the risque decisions. Those need to be the courageous ones and innovative thinkers. The rest are usually minions.
 

tinkerbell

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Hi LuminosB

I didn't just mean at work, but you are spot on, I have been working in an innovative creative environment which is fostering an organisational culture change.

I wasn't on mass recommending advocating risk taking at work, more the concept of being restrained by fear of failure/screwing up in everyday life.
 

Shimmy

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[CLICHE]Hmm, there is no such thing as a screw-up, only learning experiences.[/CLICHÉ]

Obviously I think screw ups should be avoided if possible, but when they do occur, it's look at them rationally, learn from them, improve and retry. There is no point in condemning screw ups since they're prone to happen occasionally.

The only really bad screw up is the one made twice.
 

Totenkindly

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I think the big issue is fear of punishment and embarrassment when one makes a mistake.

If people feel they will be ridiculed, or people will think they are incompetent, or they think they might get docked a raise or lose a bonus or suffer some other tangible hardship for making a mistake, then they won't go there.

There are also passive people who naturally are not comfortable leading. Try to get them to "lead" (i.e., show initiative) within their area of competence, but don't expect them to be someone they are not.

I think when people are not reacting out of fear or potential loss, they will naturally invest and engage in whatever matters to them.

Hire people who are good at what they do.

Get them training in their work if they feel they have weak spots.

Don't punish them / Encourage them when they take risks.

If a problem occurs because someone goofed, deal with it without lots of recrimination. Don't make mistakes personal. have a post mortem, see what can be done differently next time.

Foster communication on the team -- everyone is everyone else's resource. No one needs to just "make decisions" and risk failure, they can get someone else's input first.

Get work delegated to appropriate people, rather than forcing people to work outside comfort zone all the time.

I dunno... just random ideas.
 

FDG

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Yeah, you're right. I think the problem is often seen under either a lens of career advancement, or a lens of possibility of being fired. In more "horizontal" companies it should be easier to encourage personal innovation.

Talking about personal life, that's harder. People will criticize you for whatever you do, rarely looking at their own mistakes (although it gets better with people that had to go trough something similar), and the "better" you are, the higher the expectations will be, the harder people will be on you. This type of vicious cycle doesn't foster entrepreneurship.
 

luminous beam

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In terms of individuals taking risks, overcoming fear of failure, challenging themselves to step out of their comfort zones, it is something that has to be done without putting much thought on, especially not if you're terrified of failing. You fix your goal on overcoming fears and expanding your boundaries and so you do that, despite how it makes you feel. Usually, doing something out of the ordinary, especially something that you dislike, is very tiring, stressful and takes a toll. However, the reality is that like any other habit, you can re-train yourself to do things differently. Eventually, you could even enjoy challenging yourself to do the opposite or the least likely if you didn't enjoy doing so already. Some people just really like growing and improving as a person, but in order for that to happen we must confront the things that hinder us.
 

tinkerbell

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I had better point out, we don't force people to push their boundaries... just encourage them to do so... And not everyone is ready for it... I have a particularly senior team (who have a load of experience)....it helps them not get board.

I would point out that one persons brave/couragous is another man's peice of cake...so it's a real moving feast.... The team love the sense of freedom they have - and they really do reach for the stars which is awesome to be part off...

I have to say my attitude to personal risk has changed and I think I'm a bit more reserved now than I use to be.... which isn't that reserved...
 

tinkerbell

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Talking about personal life, that's harder. People will criticize you for whatever you do, rarely looking at their own mistakes (although it gets better with people that had to go trough something similar), and the "better" you are, the higher the expectations will be, the harder people will be on you. This type of vicious cycle doesn't foster entrepreneurship.

That is SO true... damned if you do, damned if you don't. I guess it's all boils down to what you think the consiequences (?sp) are...

GEEK ALERT
I did a stats class at Uni which went through the 5 decision making constraints...

Min - min - put a little in get a little out (tasting something)
Min - max - put a little in get a lot out (investing in shares)
Maxi - min - trying to get a minimum outcome (damage limitation)
Maxi -max - Trying to get the most (gamblng)
Least possible regret - best option - avoiding things you don't want....

I have to say I make most of my decisions on the last one...
 

FDG

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That is SO true... damned if you do, damned if you don't. I guess it's all boils down to what you think the consiequences (?sp) are...

GEEK ALERT
I did a stats class at Uni which went through the 5 decision making constraints...

Min - min - put a little in get a little out (tasting something)
Min - max - put a little in get a lot out (investing in shares)
Maxi - min - trying to get a minimum outcome (damage limitation)
Maxi -max - Trying to get the most (gamblng)
Least possible regret - best option - avoiding things you don't want....

I have to say I make most of my decisions on the last one...

Nice, it's actually never been mentioned to me as a 5-fold decision making process, it's a really good way to look at it. I feel like many people love if you (especially if they "care" about you) take the maximin approach, that is avoiding all possible pitfalls - but that also could be due to me having SJ parents.
 

tinkerbell

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Nice, it's actually never been mentioned to me as a 5-fold decision making process, it's a really good way to look at it. I feel like many people love if you (especially if they "care" about you) take the maximin approach, that is avoiding all possible pitfalls - but that also could be due to me having SJ parents.

So you're not gonna accuse me of being a super geek (even if it is behind closed doors)..... Different decisions need different approaches depending on preference....

Yes risk averse tends to have a min outcome.....

I loved Jennifers comment
"If people feel they will be ridiculed, or people will think they are incompetent, or they think they might get docked a raise or lose a bonus or suffer some other tangible hardship for making a mistake, then they won't go there."

The whole risk of social failure..... where people will judge you is so important at different point in time....

I'm not sure if it translates to state side, but nearly every new mum seems horrified that people will judge her a bad mother.... It does assume that the person who is judging is better than you. A lot of relaity shows where there are scenes of one competitor putting down another is all about the putter downer thinking they are better (it's really funny when they are next to be booted).

I guess the percieved judgement of outcome is the major off put for risk
 

tinkerbell

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[CLICHE]Hmm, there is no such thing as a screw-up, only learning experiences.[/CLICHÉ]

Obviously I think screw ups should be avoided if possible, but when they do occur, it's look at them rationally, learn from them, improve and retry. There is no point in condemning screw ups since they're prone to happen occasionally.

The only really bad screw up is the one made twice.


Ah oober goo-eee

It sounds like you don't do it often enough for it to be a big barrier to you
 

entropie

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I screw-up every day at work ..

schraubenzieher_steckbar2_2.jpg


flat joke alert, uaaahhhaahahaha xD
 

entropie

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wow, you call em a Phillips ? Nice :D

On behalf of my country I am honoured :D
 

tinkerbell

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wow, you call em a Phillips ? Nice :D

On behalf of my country I am honoured :D

yes to my knoweldge but I'm no handiman... but I've never heard them called anything else...

Was it inveneted in Germany?
 

entropie

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I just know the company Phillips. Sometimes, if some machinery is from a foreign country it has a different norm for screws. So maybe back in the days when there wasnt the europe-wide accepted norm like today, someone called the screws from Phillips-company that way, dunno :D.

My english is not so good, I tried reading your things here but I didnt get much. What do you mean with someone needs to screw-up in his job from time to time ? Like to know where is boundaries are or that he doesnt become arrogant or that he knows the feeling and is prepared if it happens ? I didnt get that :/
 

tinkerbell

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I just know the company Phillips. Sometimes, if some machinery is from a foreign country it has a different norm for screws. So maybe back in the days when there wasnt the europe-wide accepted norm like today, someone called the screws from Phillips-company that way, dunno :D.

My english is not so good, I tried reading your things here but I didnt get much. What do you mean with someone needs to screw-up in his job from time to time ? Like to know where is boundaries are or that he doesnt become arrogant or that he knows the feeling and is prepared if it happens ? I didnt get that :/

Yes it's likely that Philips has become a generic term....

Ok I just used work as an example of people feeling safe to push their boundaries and grow...

I know some folks struggle to take risks (NT's particularly hate appearing foolish), and just wanted peoples thoughts on how they manage risk.

Do you stay in your comfort zone (in life), what do you consider brave, what stops you from taking risks... that type of thing...

More a general question to start the subject...
 

Shimmy

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Ah oober goo-eee

It sounds like you don't do it often enough for it to be a big barrier to you

I was talking about screw ups in general rather then job related or professional screw ups in specific. As an INTP I'm more likely to miss good opportunities then to screw up on something, especially when quick risk analysis or decision making is involved.
 

entropie

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I see, well yea thats a good topic.

I like one special attitude I know from my dads job. He works as a plumper and if you as a young human want to become a plumper, you start as something like a trainee. And there is the spelling that says "Lehrjahre sind keine Herrenjahre" what can be loosely translated with "In your time of education you are not the boss".

So if there is a new trainee on a constructuon area, he will be treated badly by all the craftsmen there. (It's a pretty bad ritual, but it works all the time). He will be made to buy beer for the others, he will be criticized for his work and he wont be told about anything how to do it right on his first day.

And then if he reaches the point that he is full of frustration and doesnt know what to do no more, he will make an epic mistake, like everyone does on his first day. And after that his boss will become all friendly and starts to explain things to him and he is accepted in the community :D.

Its a pretty brutal ritual and nowadays its not that brutal anymore, but it exists because many people who were new on the job tried to tell the older ones how its done. But in crafting, if you never worked on a construction area, its highley unlikely that you will know how its done, therefore the older farts try to make the younger ones more receptive to learning.

When I helped my Dad out at work they tried that with me too and I the naive guy even went and bought the electricians their beer they send me to get. If my dad found out about this he yelled at the guys telling them i am his son and just helping out and no trainee *lol*. It's a mad world out there on the construction area :D
 
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