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  1. #51
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    Yes... Except, I want to ask if Ne is something that can be used alone. If it necessarily requires input from other people, or if new situations/objects would be sufficient? Does Ne also involving a sort of "what if", roughly equivalent to imagination? Or is this just another aspect of Ti, or even some form of F?
    Well, I don't claim to be an MBTI expert, but I would think that Ne probably plays a role or comes into play when we are alone. I don't think it's "that" black-and-white to where it's strictly Ti when alone and strictly Ne when in the presence of others.

    I don't know - if I'm in a Ti session and I get really motivated about something, I sometimes want to call someone who I respect and bounce it off them - or I'll just have the rare urge to go hang out with friends so that I can laugh it up or get some pent up energy out of me. That's my Ne bursting out. It wants to "get out" - it wants to engage with other people. But, Ti overshadows it 85% of the time - for me anyways.

    But, I think Ne comes into play when I'm alone. When I'm writing or devising a business plan or planning something out, I think my creative, "outside the box" ideas come partly from Ne. Like someone close to me recently had this really funny idea for a business. I went home and my mind just ran with it. I had this vision of how the whole business could work from start-up all the way to bringing the product to market (and everything in between). That's my Ti thinking, but I think Ti alone might make the idea kind of "dry" - just "another run-of-the-mill business" so to speak. With Ne mixed in there and knowing what consumers like and how the shelves at Toys 'R Us look - I'm able to be WAY more creative with the idea to the point that I believe it becomes a very innovative, cutting edge business idea.

    The problem is, I have to turn around and use Ne (day-in and day-out for the life of the business) for it to become a reality. I only "want" to use Ne in short spurts - here and there. I don't necessarily want to deal with people and the outside world from 8-5 every day. So, until I engage Ne, it remains a "great idea" that is stuck in my head.

    But, yeah, I think Ne takes my ideas to a new level. It takes them from mere "good ideas" to "creative, unique, innovative ideas" that *could* actually work in the real world - if I use my Ne!

  2. #52
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    Yes... Except, I want to ask if Ne is something that can be used alone. If it necessarily requires input from other people, or if new situations/objects would be sufficient? Does Ne also involving a sort of "what if", roughly equivalent to imagination? Or is this just another aspect of Ti, or even some form of F?
    Maybe, but I tend to think introverts are more capable of exercising their secondary E functions than they allow themselves to believe.

    One of my main complaints about INTPs is that I seem much more willing/able to use secondary Ti than they are to use secondary Ne, for some reason. I think a lot of it is just in your heads, frankly.

    You think Einstein (INTP) could have completely reinvented our modern understanding of physics without a strong balance between his dominant Ti and secondary Ne?

    His quote about no problem being solvable from the level of consciousness that created it it in itself a declaration of the value of Ne.

    For another example, look at Tool frontman Maynard James Keenan, who I am pretty certain is INTP, learning to appreciate the value of Ne in the song "Lateralus":

    Black then white are all i see in my infancy.
    red and yellow then came to be, reaching out to me.
    lets me see.
    as below, so above and beyond, I imagine
    drawn beyond the lines of reason.
    Push the envelope. Watch it bend.

    Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
    Withering my intuition, missing opportunities
    and I must
    Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines.

    Reaching out to embrace the random.
    Reaching out to embrace whatever may come.


    The "overthinking, overanalyzing" withers his INTUITION and leaves opportunities behind because it never takes action without complete information (which it never really has.) Story of the INTP's life!
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  3. #53
    Une Femme est une femme paperoceans's Avatar
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    Most of my friends are ENTPs... but I would love to meet INTPs
    Between that cigarillo and sticking my finger down my throat to see if I could DT, I feel like puking RN.

    Read my Blog.

  4. #54
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Go join a local D&D game--you'll have your pick of INTP men. (They absolutely fall all over themselves for any woman with even somewhat "nerdy" interests.)
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  5. #55
    Une Femme est une femme paperoceans's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Go join a local D&D game--you'll have your pick of INTP men. (They absolutely fall all over themselves for any woman with even somewhat "nerdy" interests.)
    Ew...
    Between that cigarillo and sticking my finger down my throat to see if I could DT, I feel like puking RN.

    Read my Blog.

  6. #56
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    ^ Sure you want to meet INTPs then?
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  7. #57
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Maybe, but I tend to think introverts are more capable of exercising their secondary E functions than they allow themselves to believe.

    One of my main complaints about INTPs is that I seem much more willing/able to use secondary Ti than they are to use secondary Ne, for some reason. I think a lot of it is just in your heads, frankly.

    You think Einstein (INTP) could have completely reinvented our modern understanding of physics without a strong balance between his dominant Ti and secondary Ne?

    His quote about no problem being solvable from the level of consciousness that created it it in itself a declaration of the value of Ne.

    For another example, look at Tool frontman Maynard James Keenan, who I am pretty certain is INTP, learning to appreciate the value of Ne in the song "Lateralus":

    Black then white are all i see in my infancy.
    red and yellow then came to be, reaching out to me.
    lets me see.
    as below, so above and beyond, I imagine
    drawn beyond the lines of reason.
    Push the envelope. Watch it bend.

    Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
    Withering my intuition, missing opportunities
    and I must
    Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines.

    Reaching out to embrace the random.
    Reaching out to embrace whatever may come.


    The "overthinking, overanalyzing" withers his INTUITION and leaves opportunities behind because it never takes action without complete information (which it never really has.) Story of the INTP's life!
    That's good stuff. Thanks for posting those lyrics. Pretty inspirational really. I've had people tell me that they think it's all in my head, like you mention. And perhaps that's true. In the lyrics, he mentions "pushing the envelope", "drawing outside the lines", "embracing the random" and "whatever may come". That's what can be scary. I read somewhere that extroverts have a more predominant emotion of anger and lashing out, while introverts have a more predominant emotion of fear and they retreat.

    I guess from this INTP's perspective, for those who care to know, I know in my heart that it's "possible" for me to extrovert effectively. I know I can do it. It just really goes against the grain of who I am. At least that's how it feels. Just like when I have a 9 to 5 job, after years of doing that, I feel jacked up inside. It's like, "Good God, let me out of this box! Let me go free!" Trying to extrovert permanently, as a way of daily life (not being able to retreat for significant periods of time) feels the same way. It's like you're fighting something and it's difficult to keep the fight. It's like a boxer who has a 15-round fight. As tired and drained as he is, he hangs in there for 15 rounds because he knows theres a reward at the end and he'll feel better about himself in the long run and even gain confidence, but after the 15 rounds are up someone tells him he has to go another 15 rounds tomorrow. And then 15 the next. And 15 the next. It's tough to keep up the fight.

    Another thing when we continue to extrovert day after day and for hours at a time is it starts getting really weird sometimes. REALLY. WEIRD. You start to feel like a zombie, you get very impatient, sick and tired of all the mindless chatter going on around you, stress level is high, things like hunger and headaches have a heightened sense of urgency and, perhaps worst of all, we often can intuit that other people see us as awkward and out of place. That makes it 10 times harder. Like if I'm collaborating on a team for a project (that I may think is lame to begin with, but not always) and I can sense that my "creative, out of the box ideas" and most of my input is seen as different, strange, weird, or maybe gets a "roll of the eyes" - I start to think "why am I doing this to myself?" Why continue to stay in this 15-round fight - I'm trying SO HARD to contribute but it's just not being received well.

    At the end of the day though, simulated world is right in that there's no excuse. I always want to be who I am (and not try to be some other type), but at some point one has to stop with the excuses and delve into the "unknown" and "embrace the random" and "whatever may come".

    Or just play D&D for the rest of your life. LOL. Whatever! I've never even played that game in my life.

  8. #58
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    ^ You have to be willing to fail a lot before you can succeed. That goes with the territory on learning any new skill.

    In general, though, as MJK says--reach out to embrace the random and whatever may come. Allow yourself to verbalize unfinished thought processes before you've reached a final conclusion.

    INTPs have a habit of not speaking/acting until they have complete information and are absolutely certain they're right. This gives people a rather anti-personal image because it implies that you're more interested in being right than you are in connecting with people, and it also never gives them any chance to be right too. Also, when you verbalize incomplete thought processes, many times you will finish by saying, "Well nevermind, that doesn't make sense...I guess I was wrong." INTPs tend to be terrified of being wrong, but it's really not a bad thing--it allows you to learn and grow, and also keeps up an image for others that you recognize your own fallibility as a human being. Many NTPs fail to acknowledge this.

    Key skills for NTPs learning to interact: Give other people a chance to be right. Make a point of expressly validating their ideas even if there's not much there that's truly worthwhile. Also allow people to back out gracefully if they've wandered into a subject area where you can tell you're going to crush them. DO NOT MAKE A POINT OF EMBARRASSING PEOPLE FOR BEING WRONG. You don't have to win every argument/solve every puzzle/crush every game just because you can.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  9. #59
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    ^ You have to be willing to fail a lot before you can succeed. That goes with the territory on learning any new skill.

    In general, though, as MJK says--reach out to embrace the random and whatever may come. Allow yourself to verbalize unfinished thought processes before you've reached a final conclusion.

    INTPs have a habit of not speaking/acting until they have complete information and are absolutely certain they're right. This gives people a rather anti-personal image because it implies that you're more interested in being right than you are in connecting with people, and it also never gives them any chance to be right too. Also, when you verbalize incomplete thought processes, many times you will finish by saying, "Well nevermind, that doesn't make sense...I guess I was wrong." INTPs tend to be terrified of being wrong, but it's really not a bad thing--it allows you to learn and grow, and also keeps up an image for others that you recognize your own fallibility as a human being. Many NTPs fail to acknowledge this.

    Key skills for NTPs learning to interact: Give other people a chance to be right. Make a point of expressly validating their ideas even if there's not much there that's truly worthwhile. Also allow people to back out gracefully if they've wandered into a subject area where you can tell you're going to crush them. DO NOT MAKE A POINT OF EMBARRASSING PEOPLE FOR BEING WRONG.
    Can't argue with that! I'm totally open to the advice of ENTP's. I've said before that you guys are like superhero's to me - able to do the things that I seem to struggle so hard to do.

    You don't have to win every argument/solve every puzzle/crush every game just because you can
    ..............................

  10. #60
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Maybe, but I tend to think introverts are more capable of exercising their secondary E functions than they allow themselves to believe.

    One of my main complaints about INTPs is that I seem much more willing/able to use secondary Ti than they are to use secondary Ne, for some reason. I think a lot of it is just in your heads, frankly.

    You think Einstein (INTP) could have completely reinvented our modern understanding of physics without a strong balance between his dominant Ti and secondary Ne?

    His quote about no problem being solvable from the level of consciousness that created it it in itself a declaration of the value of Ne.
    I think there's some truth to that that. I guess one problem with spending a lot of time in your head, and not spending it experiencing in something is that, with incomplete data, you can be prone to fantasies that don't match reality. (This has happened to me with women before. Not going to elaborate much on that right now, lol.)

    This is like something my ENTP friend once said, that direct experience of something gives us knowledge that books never can. I think partially he may have been referring to Ne. When I think about, it language is limited in a lot of ways, and is a very indirect way of describing or experiencing something. Even if the speaker is a skilled communicator, comprehension is greatly aided if there's some kind of reference point between to the speaker(or
    writer) and audience.

    But I'm getting too carried away with Ti, right now, I guess.

    To be fair, I'm trying to work on developing my Ne. I guess one way to do that is by going out and taking a chance. I'm going to be doing conservation work in the middle of the desert for 7th months, so I suppose they'll be ample opportunity for that.

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