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[NT] Fe and Fi, the NT version

entropie

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3. Assume? Oh what a lethal word. At this point in life, I've realized that everyone has goals that they seldom go against. These goals reflect what a person believes to be "right." I've yet to meet a person that seriously believes eliminated independent thought is "good" or "right." Any action that appears to be using that motivation is usually just an attempt to accomplish another goal, a goal nearly always not mutually exclusive from independent thought.

Maybe that's an indicator for Fi here. You comparing what a person says, with what he does
 

paintmuffin

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When I use a clock or a tape measure I rely on Te. When someone throws me some keys I rely on Se to catch them. When I see starving children on TV my heart goes out to them and that is Fi. When I buy my wife flowers to show her I appreciate her, that is Fe.

Forgive me if I'm going in the complete wrong direction with this, but I don't think functions have anything to do with catching keys or using tape measures. From my understanding, functions have to do with how you process information and use it to make decisions. As an ENTP, I "use" Ne+Ti for just about everything, including using tape measures and catching keys. Doing those things doesn't mean that my Te and Se suddenly flourish. My thought process still applies. I just happen to be "illustrating" a function. If I hypothetically bought flowers for someone to show how I appreciate them, I still probably used Ne+Ti to arrive at that action. Fe is an extremely internal thing for me, a slight impulse to maintain my relationships with other people that hardly slips into my decision-making... and when it does, it's usually misleading. I'm not exactly great with people. I just fake it most of the time.
 

BlahBlahNounBlah

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Fe users are the people who preach about morals. Fi users realize that morals are relative.


This sounds like it's more true for Fs than Ts. I'm an ENTP and I think morals are relative just because it seems logically obvious. It's not because of any gut feeling or anything.
 

BlahBlahNounBlah

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If I hypothetically bought flowers for someone to show how I appreciate them, I still probably used Ne+Ti to arrive at that action.

I have to agree with this one. I don't buy people flowers, from the heart, because I think it's a trite gesture and the flowers are just going to die anyway so who cares?

But I would brainstorm all of the possible things I could give a person and then narrow down the list based on what's likely to produce the best result. If that turns out to be flowers, then that's what I give.
 

The_Liquid_Laser

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Forgive me if I'm going in the complete wrong direction with this, but I don't think functions have anything to do with catching keys or using tape measures. From my understanding, functions have to do with how you process information and use it to make decisions. As an ENTP, I "use" Ne+Ti for just about everything, including using tape measures and catching keys. Doing those things doesn't mean that my Te and Se suddenly flourish. My thought process still applies. I just happen to be "illustrating" a function. If I hypothetically bought flowers for someone to show how I appreciate them, I still probably used Ne+Ti to arrive at that action. Fe is an extremely internal thing for me, a slight impulse to maintain my relationships with other people that hardly slips into my decision-making... and when it does, it's usually misleading. I'm not exactly great with people. I just fake it most of the time.

MBTI does not measure ability. It measures preference. We all have the ability to use all eight functions. Our type tells us what functions we prefer to use. For example every type can participate in a group brainstorming session, however ENTP's would really love that sort of thing while ISTJ's would get tired of it pretty quickly. Every type can follow the "measure twice, cut once" rule of carpentry, but ISTJ's would find doing this very comfortable, while ENTP's would be bored out of their minds.

The functions also cover very basic processes. Every time you decide to catch something thrown at you, you are using Se. Every time you make a measurement you are using Te. Every time a Sensor uses their imagination they are using either Ne or Ni.

When I buy my wife flowers I am using Fe because I'm expressing my values to her. It's possible to buy flowers using another function. Say you buy someone flowers because you know they'll complain if they don't. Then that is a decision based on Thinking rather than Feeling. However if you buy someone a gift to show your appreciation of them, then you are using Feeling. Even if you brainstorm some really unusual gift and give it in the most unusual fashion, you are simply combining Ne with Feeling. Feeling has to be in there somewhere if you are showing appreciation, because that is a value based decision.
 

paintmuffin

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MBTI does not measure ability. It measures preference. We all have the ability to use all eight functions. Our type tells us what functions we prefer to use. For example every type can participate in a group brainstorming session, however ENTP's would really love that sort of thing while ISTJ's would get tired of it pretty quickly. Every type can follow the "measure twice, cut once" rule of carpentry, but ISTJ's would find doing this very comfortable, while ENTP's would be bored out of their minds.

The functions also cover very basic processes. Every time you decide to catch something thrown at you, you are using Se. Every time you make a measurement you are using Te. Every time a Sensor uses their imagination they are using either Ne or Ni.

When I buy my wife flowers I am using Fe because I'm expressing my values to her. It's possible to buy flowers using another function. Say you buy someone flowers because you know they'll complain if they don't. Then that is a decision based on Thinking rather than Feeling. However if you buy someone a gift to show your appreciation of them, then you are using Feeling. Even if you brainstorm some really unusual gift and give it in the most unusual fashion, you are simply combining Ne with Feeling. Feeling has to be in there somewhere if you are showing appreciation, because that is a value based decision.

You have a point with the Feeling & the flowers. However I still don't think the functions can be "used." I don't feel my cognitive processes whirring when I roll out a tape measure because I am neither processing information nor making a decision. In fact, the reason I'm using the tape measure is probably from some earlier decision I made that has nothing to do with Te. Because I don't make decisions based on Te, even when my actions suggest it.

But alas! We are getting off topic!
 

Eric B

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Here is my take on this whole thing.

All people use all eight functions. Our type simply describes which functions we prefer. For example my type, ENTP, says that I'm an extravert who prefers Intuition the most. It also says I prefer to use Ti over Fi to support my intuition. That is all it means to be an ENTP. You can tell me what my tertiary and inferior functions are supposed to be, but the introverted or extraverted aspects of these functions are largely irrelevant.

Let me elaborate. My personal preference for functions as an ENTP is really Intuition -> Thinking -> Feeling -> Sensing. I say Ne is my dominant function because I am an extravert. Once you get to supposed tertiary and inferior functions the introversion/extraversion aspect is so subtle that it doesn't really matter. Type only describes preference and not ability, and in reality when we use the 6 other functions that we don't particularly prefer it is because real life demands we do so. When I use a clock or a tape measure I rely on Te. When someone throws me some keys I rely on Se to catch them. When I see starving children on TV my heart goes out to them and that is Fi. When I buy my wife flowers to show her I appreciate her, that is Fe.

All I can really say about Fe, Fi, Se and Si is that I prefer Feeling over Sensing. I prefer both Fe and Fi over Se and Si. However I since my first two preferences are Intuition and Thinking the introversion/extraversion aspect of Feeling and Sensing doesn't really matter to me. We all use all eight functions, and our type only describes the two we prefer the most.
...In other words, the other functions are normally undifferentiated.
 

The_Liquid_Laser

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You have a point with the Feeling & the flowers. However I still don't think the functions can be "used." I don't feel my cognitive processes whirring when I roll out a tape measure because I am neither processing information nor making a decision. In fact, the reason I'm using the tape measure is probably from some earlier decision I made that has nothing to do with Te. Because I don't make decisions based on Te, even when my actions suggest it.

But alas! We are getting off topic!

Our brain is working even when we do very simple actions. When the tape measure tells us the wood is 15 inches long and as a result we decide the wood is 15 inches long, then we are using Te. It is a very simple thing, but the brain still has to process information even for very basic activities. Now if you are thinking about which function you used to actually want to pick up the tape measure and want to use it, then that is another matter entirely.

(BTW, I am using the word "used" here very loosely.)


...In other words, the other functions are normally undifferentiated.

That is essentially what I'm saying. (Although if pressed I'd make some subtle distinctions.)
 

sculpting

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Not particularly. I have difficulty remembering people. But I generally think that what was in the past is in the past and it's over. I might remember that someone made me mad, but I remember it almost like it happened in a book or to someone else.

I think this may also be Ne at work. I will fixate on my emo response for someone (perhaps the same fixation Katsuni described in the ENTP shrug-except for an entp it is irritation/annoyance) for a few days. Once I find something to distract me, I let it go and then dont care at all. So, no I do not carry it with me. I endlessly forgive and then stuff go.

But I also think all people are connected and there's joy in experiencing that connection (in theory). Is the "in theory" part what makes me not an Fi? :laugh:

Once my and amargith had a convo about how Fi users connect. Now that I know what to look for I can make those same connections with ISTJs and INTJs. We make eye contact and there is just an understanding...

I've found that Fi in an ENTP will leave them unsure of the psychological distance between them and others (which has probably been seen in some profiles about the place). I read it a while ago and thought: wtf? It seems to mean that you don't really know how others see you or your actions without them saying it, it results in not knowing where you stand in a relation, and you probably end up crossing some borders that you shouldn't.Fe supposedly makes us want to build a sort of atmosphere (or is what we use to build an atmosphere? not sure). It might be responsible for encouragement of others to get involved.

I've often completely ignored my convictions of others, and I've been just as friendly to them as I would anyone else, no idea what functions would cause that.

So the first part-this fascinates me. I have seen this a bunch in several of my ENTPs.

I rarely make direct sustained eye contact with people. Glances, smiles, lots of looking up and thinking-but nothing like the Ti stares you guys do. The other day I was pondering this and I realized that if I make direct eye contact with others and relax the Te barrier-I feel horrifically overwhelmed. My first thread here I described people as "people blobs". I dont have to SEE them to understand thier mood or how to interact with them. If I actually do watch them I feel like they are flowing into me. Fi Information overload.

Just having them walk in the room, a quick glance will feed me massive amounts of information about "how" they are. (With the always present caveat that I cannot know what they think and may misinterrpret)

For me I think Ne observes information about the person, then Fi forms a "reflection" of them internally, which is constantly remodeled by incoming information. That reflection is what Fi uses when making choices about how to interact with that person. (Does Ti do this-make an internal model of the problem you are trying to solve?)

So for an ENTP-it seems like the more Ti they use, the less Fi they use-thus the more they have to watch people intensely to understand the unspoken cues. Fe gives you info about groups-which I lack utterly. Fi gives you info about individuals.

So it isnt uncommon for my ENTPs to not understand how they are projecting at an individual level onto another person-or what that person thinks of them-especially in the moment. They cant use Fi to "analyze" that person internally with a reflection and readapt. Instead they use Fe social standards for behavior to self regulate.

Let me know how this sounds, this could all be bullshit, so call me on it if it doesnt sound right. you guys are the experts :)

The second part:
This sounds like the way my entp friend describes her Fe. It makes her okay with being nice to people she does not like. That is very hard for me.

I have to agree with this one. I don't buy people flowers, from the heart, because I think it's a trite gesture and the flowers are just going to die anyway so who cares?

But I would brainstorm all of the possible things I could give a person and then narrow down the list based on what's likely to produce the best result. If that turns out to be flowers, then that's what I give.

Fi makes me give my entp best friend flowers. They are stupid, and die and she takes each batch of them and hangs them to dry in her office. I pick the purple ones becuase she likes them or sometime red-orange crazy ones. Her ESTJ friend just bought her a beautiful arrangement that cost like 100 bucks. I would never do that-but I made her bracelet with red and blue beads with the red ones being there for Te courage. (My Te just pointed out to me that Fi is fucking looney, FYI. It also says if she tells anyone I did that I will punch her in the nose.)
 

sculpting

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sorry blah, I just realized your thread was specific to NTs with Fi. Alas Ne drags me off topic. But it is page 5....

anyways one last thought...not sure why but all of ENTPs and ESTPs have become fans of me writing them insane Fi blackberry poetry. I now have a fan club. I dont know if becuase you guys dont use Fi, it is fun to play with in short doses or what. (I love bukowski as it is so Se heavy....maybe it's the same idea)
 

sofmarhof

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Huh, I wonder my personality agrees with the INTP concept then. My need for emotional connection seems deeper than what was mentioned though.

I'm the same. I feel very strong emotions all the time, and it seemed wrong to me that F could be my inferior function. I was sure that INTP was my correct type, though, since the first time I read an INTP profile it felt so uncannily accurate.

I thought that figuring out the difference between Fe and Fi might help me figure this out. I read the NF version of this thread first where this was more or less the consensus:

Fi: Producing your own values system, finding your own interpretation of what is morally right or wrong.

Fe: Following a universal values system; what is considered morally right or wrong.

Fi felt more true to me, since my ideas of what is moral are quite different from what society thinks... but when I act based on emotion I am never consciously thinking about whether my actions are moral according to me or anyone else, so the Fi description isn't satisfactory either.

Now, this I can very strongly relate to:

INTP, inferior Fe:

1. A sudden need for emotional support under extreme stress.
2. Building frustration finally erupting in a virulent personal attack.
3. A tendency to assume that other people's personal opinions/rules of etiquette are meant to eliminate/devalue independent thought.

Actually, these are the strongest emotions I feel, since happy for me means going back to thinking mode.

So my explanation is, if you have inferior F, you still have F. It's simply slower to develop or used less often. But in my case, thanks to being really unpopular and badly bullied in elementary school I was forced to acknowledge feeling, and therefore came to develop it more fully. I still don't easily develop an emotional connection with many people, but I feel the need for a deep connection with somebody intensely.

I still have no idea what the difference between Fe and Fi is or how it relates to the above.
 

simulatedworld

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I'm having difficulty understanding what Fi is, and every time Fi vs. Fe is discussed in the NF forum, the distinctions get messy because they take every attempt at definition as personal attack (and in many cases, they are personal attacks).


So, For ENTP/INTP/ENTJ/INTJ, what do Fi and Fe actually do? How would I more easily recognize these functions in NTs in every day life?


Would Fi mean you care that Woody Allen married his daughter? Or would Fe care about that? Or would they care for different reasons? (Fe because it's considered destructive to society? Fi because ...? I don't know what Fi is so I don't know how to finish that, and I'm not certain I got Fe right, but I tried to imagine why I might care about that, and that was what I came up with. I don't care, by the way.)


So anyway ... a little help?

Whether an NT uses Fe or Fi depends upon whether that NT uses Te or Ti.

Fe always pairs with Ti (for NTPs) and Te always pairs with Fi (for NTJs.)

As for how they actually make decisions, the basic difference between introverted and extroverted functions is that introverted functions are self-validated and operate entirely according to one's personal perspective with no input from the outside world. The user of an introverted function simply knows through direct experience whatever it is that that function tells him is important.

Extroverted functions, on the other hand, change and adapt according to present external conditions. In the case of Fi vs. Fe, this amounts to the following:

Fi defines ethics according to the self. What is right and wrong is a function of private and personal values, and does not depend at all upon any validation from other people or any external factors at all. Introverted functions operate "in a vacuum"; that is, an Fi user is concerned with what is inherently ethical as defined by his own internal value set, and this is very very unlikely to change.

"What do I know in my heart is right regardless of what anyone else says?" Fi is more likely to declare its enemies evil or amoral.

Fe defines ethics according to the environment. What is right and wrong depends upon what ethical/social standards are observed and practiced by the community group. Fe adapts its conception of ethics to the emotional texture of its environment; this is why strong Fe users are so attuned to the emotional needs of others--the validation comes from without, not from within. To Fe, there is no such thing as "ethics in a vacuum" because we cannot make an external judgment until some external goal or context has been defined.

"What does my family unit or other cooperative social group hold as the most important ethical values?" Fe is more likely to declare its enemies rude or inappropriate to the current social context.

As for Woody Allen marrying his daughter, both Fi and Fe could have serious problems with this in the right context, or they might both be ok with it, depending on personal factors.

If Fi had a problem with this, it would be due to a rigid internal personal belief that marrying your daughter is morally wrong, period. Not everyone's Fi holds the same moral values, though--the key is where the source of moral decision comes from.

If Fe had a problem with this, it would be due to the fact that this marriage violates community social and ethical standards in the group by which the Fe user defines his place in relation to others. "Our society doesn't tolerate this" would be an Fe-oriented objection; however, an Fe user might also be perfectly fine with this if he were operating within a social group that doesn't consider this to be a problem.

An Fe user moving from one culture to another would have an easier time adapting his etiquette standards to fit the new surroundings--Fi would almost never do this, as it doesn't value any external validation for its moral belief system.

"What would Fe and Fi each think about this particular moral issue?" is not really the right question. Either one might find any given issue moral or immoral; there are no moral beliefs that are 100% universal among all Fi (or all Fe) users.
 

Lethe

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INTJ, tertiary Fi:

1. Emotional breakdown. Withdraws into self and dwells on the emotion until it's resolved, even at the expense of external goals.
2. Personal integrity. Will refuse to do anything that goes against their personal code of ethics, even if it benefits them (and insistence on going along with it even if it hurts them). May withdrawn from others or push them away without admitting the reason if more important parts of this code are not shared by these others.
3. Faith. A tendency to have faith in the rationality and good intentions of others until given reason to suspect otherwise.

Those are my guesses, anyway...

Omph. That hits home for this INTJ.

Guilty of all the above. :cheese:

And also this:

I do know that INTJs have a heightened sense of accountablity, though, and are very likely to blame themselves for the failure of something and try to figure out what they did wrong, even if they should know logically that there was nothing they could have done. This is the exact point where the INTJs idealism and need for competence enter the realm of irrationality.

They may know where their technical skills and abilities start and end, but they do not have a sense of where their control and personal accountability start and end. So you have to illustrate the latter in terms of the former such that the possibility is excluded from consideration.
 

Andy

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Here's what I've seen.



INTJ, tertiary Fi:

1. Emotional breakdown. Withdraws into self and dwells on the emotion until it's resolved, even at the expense of external goals.
2. Personal integrity. Will refuse to do anything that goes against their personal code of ethics, even if it benefits them (and insistence on going along with it even if it hurts them). May withdrawn from others or push them away without admitting the reason if more important parts of this code are not shared by these others.
3. Faith. A tendency to have faith in the rationality and good intentions of others until given reason to suspect otherwise.

Those are my guesses, anyway...


No, I have no faith in other people at all. I see everything that is wrong in them long before I see the good. Gaining my trust is a hard task.
 

Andy

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Right, I have a bit more time to make a proper reply now. I had to rush of and help my brother do some brick laying before. I posted something a bit like this n the idealics forum, and it vanished without a trace, but I'll try again.

I've always found that one can gain a certaininsight into a function by considering its partner, the function that always comes with in. In this case the pairings are:

Fi-Te
Fe-Ti

There has to be a reason for this pairings, and I've come to believe it is because they have the same basic attitude, but in a different realm.

I understand Fi-Te best, so I'll start there. These two functions often opperate in similar situations. Consider a family about to go on holiday. The Te dominant father (forgive the stereotyping, please) is busy making a list. How much petrol will we need' where can we get more along the way, how long will the journy take, will we need to stop for lunch along the way and so forth.

Fi is dominant mother is also making a list: what entertainment can we have in the car to stop the kids from going berserk from boredom, what sort of things can I have in the packed lunch so everyone has something they like, make sure little Morgan has his teddy bear otherwise he'll be miserable all week.

Te calculates logistical needs, Fi emotional ones. A second aspect of the relationship is where Te finds a way of doing something and Fi decides if succes is worth the moral cost. In this way Fi and Te work in conjunction with each other, analysing all aspects of an operation.

Now consider Fe-Ti. Ti delights in logical analysis. The Ti dominant person will apply logic to something just for the enjoyment of doing so. There doesn't have to be any particular purpose or end result, as the process itself is the joy. Hence we get people who spend far to long thinking about rubiks cube problems, prime numbers or philosophical debates of no use to anyone.

Fe aproaches socialising in a similar way. The Fe user will frequently mix with people just for the pleasure of meeting someone new. There doesn't need to be an aim or end result. Fe does in the social world what Ti does in the world of logic - it plays and tinkers.
 

simulatedworld

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^ Ehhhh that isn't quite what Fe does. It's far more methodical than that.

Also, Fi will apply ethical analysis to everything the same way Ti does without any particular goal in mind. Neither can help it.
 

BlahBlahNounBlah

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Whether an NT uses Fe or Fi depends upon whether that NT uses Te or Ti.

Fe always pairs with Ti (for NTPs) and Te always pairs with Fi (for NTJs.)

As for how they actually make decisions, the basic difference between introverted and extroverted functions is that introverted functions are self-validated and operate entirely according to one's personal perspective with no input from the outside world. The user of an introverted function simply knows through direct experience whatever it is that that function tells him is important.

Extroverted functions, on the other hand, change and adapt according to present external conditions. In the case of Fi vs. Fe, this amounts to the following:

Fi defines ethics according to the self. What is right and wrong is a function of private and personal values, and does not depend at all upon any validation from other people or any external factors at all. Introverted functions operate "in a vacuum"; that is, an Fi user is concerned with what is inherently ethical as defined by his own internal value set, and this is very very unlikely to change.

"What do I know in my heart is right regardless of what anyone else says?" Fi is more likely to declare its enemies evil or amoral.

Fe defines ethics according to the environment. What is right and wrong depends upon what ethical/social standards are observed and practiced by the community group. Fe adapts its conception of ethics to the emotional texture of its environment; this is why strong Fe users are so attuned to the emotional needs of others--the validation comes from without, not from within. To Fe, there is no such thing as "ethics in a vacuum" because we cannot make an external judgment until some external goal or context has been defined.

"What does my family unit or other cooperative social group hold as the most important ethical values?" Fe is more likely to declare its enemies rude or inappropriate to the current social context.

As for Woody Allen marrying his daughter, both Fi and Fe could have serious problems with this in the right context, or they might both be ok with it, depending on personal factors.

If Fi had a problem with this, it would be due to a rigid internal personal belief that marrying your daughter is morally wrong, period. Not everyone's Fi holds the same moral values, though--the key is where the source of moral decision comes from.

If Fe had a problem with this, it would be due to the fact that this marriage violates community social and ethical standards in the group by which the Fe user defines his place in relation to others. "Our society doesn't tolerate this" would be an Fe-oriented objection; however, an Fe user might also be perfectly fine with this if he were operating within a social group that doesn't consider this to be a problem.

An Fe user moving from one culture to another would have an easier time adapting his etiquette standards to fit the new surroundings--Fi would almost never do this, as it doesn't value any external validation for its moral belief system.

"What would Fe and Fi each think about this particular moral issue?" is not really the right question. Either one might find any given issue moral or immoral; there are no moral beliefs that are 100% universal among all Fi (or all Fe) users.


That was a great explanation! It really made it clear how similar Te/Ti is to Fe/Fi.
 

tinkerbell

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Here's what I've seen.

INTP, inferior Fe:

1. A sudden need for emotional support under extreme stress.
2. Building frustration finally erupting in a virulent personal attack.
3. A tendency to assume that other people's personal opinions/rules of etiquette are meant to eliminate/devalue independent thought.

ENTP, tertiary Fe:

1. An attempt to use charm to get out of trouble.
2. Concern with how others are seeing them (I know THAT one all too well).
3. A fondness for eliciting shock or strong reactions in people. Possibly a tendency to be a clown/comedian.

ENTJ, inferior Fi:

1. Stressed insistence that their way is right, even when it's been shown impractical.
2. A tendency to expect everyone to be self-motivated.
3. Tending to orient their logic in terms of what they personally want to achieve.

INTJ, tertiary Fi:

1. Emotional breakdown. Withdraws into self and dwells on the emotion until it's resolved, even at the expense of external goals.
2. Personal integrity. Will refuse to do anything that goes against their personal code of ethics, even if it benefits them (and insistence on going along with it even if it hurts them). May withdrawn from others or push them away without admitting the reason if more important parts of this code are not shared by these others.
3. Faith. A tendency to have faith in the rationality and good intentions of others until given reason to suspect otherwise.

Those are my guesses, anyway...


these are great,

Not only do I totally exhibit ENTP-ness I also have a few others which I've bolded.... maybe they are lesser I don't know.

I know one ENTP who really tries the charm thing, I'm not quite so blatant with the charm, much more practical - i've stuffed up
 

tinkerbell

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That was a great explanation! It really made it clear how similar Te/Ti is to Fe/Fi.

yes indeed.... Actually I'm still not 100% sure I buy that I moralise depedant on group value, but I guess I grew up with a strain of religion - which may act in that way beyond my consiouness.

good explanation
 

tinkerbell

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I'm the same. I feel very strong emotions all the time, and it seemed wrong to me that F could be my inferior function. I was sure that INTP was my correct type, though, since the first time I read an INTP profile it felt so uncannily accurate.
.

I don't think it's related to the strength of the emotion, I think it realtes to how you use them - as a T type you don't use your emotions as a leaver for decision making but it doesn't mean you don't have empathy for people or concern over how they will react in a situation you've made a T decision about.

For instance, if you were running a compnay and the recetion meant you would have to ahve staff cuts now, or jepordise the company - you choose to cut staff, so you can stay in business and keep some of the workers in employment. You make the T decision - hard and cold and logical, but you emotionally feel for those people who are loosing thier jobs... evne though you need to do it.

I fear and F type would let the copany drown or hope for the best..... (maybe that is harsh I don't know).

I'm guessing it's as Stimulating world posted... you use your emotions differently in a specific sistuation... such as beign challenged or confronted by someone.
 
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