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  1. #51
    Senior Member sofmarhof's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KazeCraven View Post
    Huh, I wonder my personality agrees with the INTP concept then. My need for emotional connection seems deeper than what was mentioned though.
    I'm the same. I feel very strong emotions all the time, and it seemed wrong to me that F could be my inferior function. I was sure that INTP was my correct type, though, since the first time I read an INTP profile it felt so uncannily accurate.

    I thought that figuring out the difference between Fe and Fi might help me figure this out. I read the NF version of this thread first where this was more or less the consensus:

    Quote Originally Posted by Grungemouse View Post
    Fi: Producing your own values system, finding your own interpretation of what is morally right or wrong.

    Fe: Following a universal values system; what is considered morally right or wrong.
    Fi felt more true to me, since my ideas of what is moral are quite different from what society thinks... but when I act based on emotion I am never consciously thinking about whether my actions are moral according to me or anyone else, so the Fi description isn't satisfactory either.

    Now, this I can very strongly relate to:

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    INTP, inferior Fe:

    1. A sudden need for emotional support under extreme stress.
    2. Building frustration finally erupting in a virulent personal attack.
    3. A tendency to assume that other people's personal opinions/rules of etiquette are meant to eliminate/devalue independent thought.
    Actually, these are the strongest emotions I feel, since happy for me means going back to thinking mode.

    So my explanation is, if you have inferior F, you still have F. It's simply slower to develop or used less often. But in my case, thanks to being really unpopular and badly bullied in elementary school I was forced to acknowledge feeling, and therefore came to develop it more fully. I still don't easily develop an emotional connection with many people, but I feel the need for a deep connection with somebody intensely.

    I still have no idea what the difference between Fe and Fi is or how it relates to the above.

  2. #52
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlahBlahNounBlah View Post
    I'm having difficulty understanding what Fi is, and every time Fi vs. Fe is discussed in the NF forum, the distinctions get messy because they take every attempt at definition as personal attack (and in many cases, they are personal attacks).


    So, For ENTP/INTP/ENTJ/INTJ, what do Fi and Fe actually do? How would I more easily recognize these functions in NTs in every day life?


    Would Fi mean you care that Woody Allen married his daughter? Or would Fe care about that? Or would they care for different reasons? (Fe because it's considered destructive to society? Fi because ...? I don't know what Fi is so I don't know how to finish that, and I'm not certain I got Fe right, but I tried to imagine why I might care about that, and that was what I came up with. I don't care, by the way.)


    So anyway ... a little help?
    Whether an NT uses Fe or Fi depends upon whether that NT uses Te or Ti.

    Fe always pairs with Ti (for NTPs) and Te always pairs with Fi (for NTJs.)

    As for how they actually make decisions, the basic difference between introverted and extroverted functions is that introverted functions are self-validated and operate entirely according to one's personal perspective with no input from the outside world. The user of an introverted function simply knows through direct experience whatever it is that that function tells him is important.

    Extroverted functions, on the other hand, change and adapt according to present external conditions. In the case of Fi vs. Fe, this amounts to the following:

    Fi defines ethics according to the self. What is right and wrong is a function of private and personal values, and does not depend at all upon any validation from other people or any external factors at all. Introverted functions operate "in a vacuum"; that is, an Fi user is concerned with what is inherently ethical as defined by his own internal value set, and this is very very unlikely to change.

    "What do I know in my heart is right regardless of what anyone else says?" Fi is more likely to declare its enemies evil or amoral.

    Fe defines ethics according to the environment. What is right and wrong depends upon what ethical/social standards are observed and practiced by the community group. Fe adapts its conception of ethics to the emotional texture of its environment; this is why strong Fe users are so attuned to the emotional needs of others--the validation comes from without, not from within. To Fe, there is no such thing as "ethics in a vacuum" because we cannot make an external judgment until some external goal or context has been defined.

    "What does my family unit or other cooperative social group hold as the most important ethical values?" Fe is more likely to declare its enemies rude or inappropriate to the current social context.

    As for Woody Allen marrying his daughter, both Fi and Fe could have serious problems with this in the right context, or they might both be ok with it, depending on personal factors.

    If Fi had a problem with this, it would be due to a rigid internal personal belief that marrying your daughter is morally wrong, period. Not everyone's Fi holds the same moral values, though--the key is where the source of moral decision comes from.

    If Fe had a problem with this, it would be due to the fact that this marriage violates community social and ethical standards in the group by which the Fe user defines his place in relation to others. "Our society doesn't tolerate this" would be an Fe-oriented objection; however, an Fe user might also be perfectly fine with this if he were operating within a social group that doesn't consider this to be a problem.

    An Fe user moving from one culture to another would have an easier time adapting his etiquette standards to fit the new surroundings--Fi would almost never do this, as it doesn't value any external validation for its moral belief system.

    "What would Fe and Fi each think about this particular moral issue?" is not really the right question. Either one might find any given issue moral or immoral; there are no moral beliefs that are 100% universal among all Fi (or all Fe) users.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  3. #53
    Obsession. Lethe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    INTJ, tertiary Fi:

    1. Emotional breakdown. Withdraws into self and dwells on the emotion until it's resolved, even at the expense of external goals.
    2. Personal integrity. Will refuse to do anything that goes against their personal code of ethics, even if it benefits them (and insistence on going along with it even if it hurts them). May withdrawn from others or push them away without admitting the reason if more important parts of this code are not shared by these others.
    3. Faith. A tendency to have faith in the rationality and good intentions of others until given reason to suspect otherwise.

    Those are my guesses, anyway...
    Omph. That hits home for this INTJ.

    Guilty of all the above.

    And also this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I do know that INTJs have a heightened sense of accountablity, though, and are very likely to blame themselves for the failure of something and try to figure out what they did wrong, even if they should know logically that there was nothing they could have done. This is the exact point where the INTJs idealism and need for competence enter the realm of irrationality.

    They may know where their technical skills and abilities start and end, but they do not have a sense of where their control and personal accountability start and end. So you have to illustrate the latter in terms of the former such that the possibility is excluded from consideration.
    "I cannot expect even my own art to provide all of the answers -- only to hope it keeps asking the right questions." -- Grace Hartigan

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    Quote Originally Posted by OneWithSoul View Post
    Looking into the eyes of a [Ni user] is like peeking through a portal into a parallel universe.

  4. #54
    Supreme High Commander Andy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Here's what I've seen.



    INTJ, tertiary Fi:

    1. Emotional breakdown. Withdraws into self and dwells on the emotion until it's resolved, even at the expense of external goals.
    2. Personal integrity. Will refuse to do anything that goes against their personal code of ethics, even if it benefits them (and insistence on going along with it even if it hurts them). May withdrawn from others or push them away without admitting the reason if more important parts of this code are not shared by these others.
    3. Faith. A tendency to have faith in the rationality and good intentions of others until given reason to suspect otherwise.

    Those are my guesses, anyway...

    No, I have no faith in other people at all. I see everything that is wrong in them long before I see the good. Gaining my trust is a hard task.

  5. #55
    Supreme High Commander Andy's Avatar
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    Right, I have a bit more time to make a proper reply now. I had to rush of and help my brother do some brick laying before. I posted something a bit like this n the idealics forum, and it vanished without a trace, but I'll try again.

    I've always found that one can gain a certaininsight into a function by considering its partner, the function that always comes with in. In this case the pairings are:

    Fi-Te
    Fe-Ti

    There has to be a reason for this pairings, and I've come to believe it is because they have the same basic attitude, but in a different realm.

    I understand Fi-Te best, so I'll start there. These two functions often opperate in similar situations. Consider a family about to go on holiday. The Te dominant father (forgive the stereotyping, please) is busy making a list. How much petrol will we need' where can we get more along the way, how long will the journy take, will we need to stop for lunch along the way and so forth.

    Fi is dominant mother is also making a list: what entertainment can we have in the car to stop the kids from going berserk from boredom, what sort of things can I have in the packed lunch so everyone has something they like, make sure little Morgan has his teddy bear otherwise he'll be miserable all week.

    Te calculates logistical needs, Fi emotional ones. A second aspect of the relationship is where Te finds a way of doing something and Fi decides if succes is worth the moral cost. In this way Fi and Te work in conjunction with each other, analysing all aspects of an operation.

    Now consider Fe-Ti. Ti delights in logical analysis. The Ti dominant person will apply logic to something just for the enjoyment of doing so. There doesn't have to be any particular purpose or end result, as the process itself is the joy. Hence we get people who spend far to long thinking about rubiks cube problems, prime numbers or philosophical debates of no use to anyone.

    Fe aproaches socialising in a similar way. The Fe user will frequently mix with people just for the pleasure of meeting someone new. There doesn't need to be an aim or end result. Fe does in the social world what Ti does in the world of logic - it plays and tinkers.

  6. #56
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    ^ Ehhhh that isn't quite what Fe does. It's far more methodical than that.

    Also, Fi will apply ethical analysis to everything the same way Ti does without any particular goal in mind. Neither can help it.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  7. #57
    Senior Member BlahBlahNounBlah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Whether an NT uses Fe or Fi depends upon whether that NT uses Te or Ti.

    Fe always pairs with Ti (for NTPs) and Te always pairs with Fi (for NTJs.)

    As for how they actually make decisions, the basic difference between introverted and extroverted functions is that introverted functions are self-validated and operate entirely according to one's personal perspective with no input from the outside world. The user of an introverted function simply knows through direct experience whatever it is that that function tells him is important.

    Extroverted functions, on the other hand, change and adapt according to present external conditions. In the case of Fi vs. Fe, this amounts to the following:

    Fi defines ethics according to the self. What is right and wrong is a function of private and personal values, and does not depend at all upon any validation from other people or any external factors at all. Introverted functions operate "in a vacuum"; that is, an Fi user is concerned with what is inherently ethical as defined by his own internal value set, and this is very very unlikely to change.

    "What do I know in my heart is right regardless of what anyone else says?" Fi is more likely to declare its enemies evil or amoral.

    Fe defines ethics according to the environment. What is right and wrong depends upon what ethical/social standards are observed and practiced by the community group. Fe adapts its conception of ethics to the emotional texture of its environment; this is why strong Fe users are so attuned to the emotional needs of others--the validation comes from without, not from within. To Fe, there is no such thing as "ethics in a vacuum" because we cannot make an external judgment until some external goal or context has been defined.

    "What does my family unit or other cooperative social group hold as the most important ethical values?" Fe is more likely to declare its enemies rude or inappropriate to the current social context.

    As for Woody Allen marrying his daughter, both Fi and Fe could have serious problems with this in the right context, or they might both be ok with it, depending on personal factors.

    If Fi had a problem with this, it would be due to a rigid internal personal belief that marrying your daughter is morally wrong, period. Not everyone's Fi holds the same moral values, though--the key is where the source of moral decision comes from.

    If Fe had a problem with this, it would be due to the fact that this marriage violates community social and ethical standards in the group by which the Fe user defines his place in relation to others. "Our society doesn't tolerate this" would be an Fe-oriented objection; however, an Fe user might also be perfectly fine with this if he were operating within a social group that doesn't consider this to be a problem.

    An Fe user moving from one culture to another would have an easier time adapting his etiquette standards to fit the new surroundings--Fi would almost never do this, as it doesn't value any external validation for its moral belief system.

    "What would Fe and Fi each think about this particular moral issue?" is not really the right question. Either one might find any given issue moral or immoral; there are no moral beliefs that are 100% universal among all Fi (or all Fe) users.

    That was a great explanation! It really made it clear how similar Te/Ti is to Fe/Fi.
    I have a vagina.


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  8. #58
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Here's what I've seen.

    INTP, inferior Fe:

    1. A sudden need for emotional support under extreme stress.
    2. Building frustration finally erupting in a virulent personal attack.
    3. A tendency to assume that other people's personal opinions/rules of etiquette are meant to eliminate/devalue independent thought.

    ENTP, tertiary Fe:

    1. An attempt to use charm to get out of trouble.
    2. Concern with how others are seeing them (I know THAT one all too well).
    3. A fondness for eliciting shock or strong reactions in people. Possibly a tendency to be a clown/comedian.

    ENTJ, inferior Fi:

    1. Stressed insistence that their way is right, even when it's been shown impractical.
    2. A tendency to expect everyone to be self-motivated.
    3. Tending to orient their logic in terms of what they personally want to achieve.

    INTJ, tertiary Fi:

    1. Emotional breakdown. Withdraws into self and dwells on the emotion until it's resolved, even at the expense of external goals.
    2[B]. Personal integrity. Will refuse to do anything that goes against their personal code of ethics, even if it benefits them (and insistence on going along with it even if it hurts them). May withdrawn from others or push them away without admitting the reason if more important parts of this code are not shared by these others.
    3. Faith. A tendency to have faith in the rationality and good intentions of others until given reason to suspect otherwise.

    Those are my guesses, anyway...
    these are great,

    Not only do I totally exhibit ENTP-ness I also have a few others which I've bolded.... maybe they are lesser I don't know.

    I know one ENTP who really tries the charm thing, I'm not quite so blatant with the charm, much more practical - i've stuffed up

  9. #59
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlahBlahNounBlah View Post
    That was a great explanation! It really made it clear how similar Te/Ti is to Fe/Fi.
    yes indeed.... Actually I'm still not 100% sure I buy that I moralise depedant on group value, but I guess I grew up with a strain of religion - which may act in that way beyond my consiouness.

    good explanation

  10. #60
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sofmarhof View Post
    I'm the same. I feel very strong emotions all the time, and it seemed wrong to me that F could be my inferior function. I was sure that INTP was my correct type, though, since the first time I read an INTP profile it felt so uncannily accurate.
    .
    I don't think it's related to the strength of the emotion, I think it realtes to how you use them - as a T type you don't use your emotions as a leaver for decision making but it doesn't mean you don't have empathy for people or concern over how they will react in a situation you've made a T decision about.

    For instance, if you were running a compnay and the recetion meant you would have to ahve staff cuts now, or jepordise the company - you choose to cut staff, so you can stay in business and keep some of the workers in employment. You make the T decision - hard and cold and logical, but you emotionally feel for those people who are loosing thier jobs... evne though you need to do it.

    I fear and F type would let the copany drown or hope for the best..... (maybe that is harsh I don't know).

    I'm guessing it's as Stimulating world posted... you use your emotions differently in a specific sistuation... such as beign challenged or confronted by someone.

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