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  1. #41
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew_Z View Post
    3. Assume? Oh what a lethal word. At this point in life, I've realized that everyone has goals that they seldom go against. These goals reflect what a person believes to be "right." I've yet to meet a person that seriously believes eliminated independent thought is "good" or "right." Any action that appears to be using that motivation is usually just an attempt to accomplish another goal, a goal nearly always not mutually exclusive from independent thought.
    Maybe that's an indicator for Fi here. You comparing what a person says, with what he does
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  2. #42
    Senior Member paintmuffin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    When I use a clock or a tape measure I rely on Te. When someone throws me some keys I rely on Se to catch them. When I see starving children on TV my heart goes out to them and that is Fi. When I buy my wife flowers to show her I appreciate her, that is Fe.
    Forgive me if I'm going in the complete wrong direction with this, but I don't think functions have anything to do with catching keys or using tape measures. From my understanding, functions have to do with how you process information and use it to make decisions. As an ENTP, I "use" Ne+Ti for just about everything, including using tape measures and catching keys. Doing those things doesn't mean that my Te and Se suddenly flourish. My thought process still applies. I just happen to be "illustrating" a function. If I hypothetically bought flowers for someone to show how I appreciate them, I still probably used Ne+Ti to arrive at that action. Fe is an extremely internal thing for me, a slight impulse to maintain my relationships with other people that hardly slips into my decision-making... and when it does, it's usually misleading. I'm not exactly great with people. I just fake it most of the time.
    A colleague of the great scientist James Watson remarked that Watson was always “lounging around, arguing about problems instead of doing experiments.” He concluded that “There is more than one way of doing good science.”
    It was Watson’s form of idleness, the scientist went on to say, that allowed him to solve “the greatest of all biological problems: the discovery of the structure of DNA.” It's a point worth remembering in a society overly concerned with efficiency.

  3. #43
    Senior Member BlahBlahNounBlah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ace_ View Post
    Fe users are the people who preach about morals. Fi users realize that morals are relative.

    This sounds like it's more true for Fs than Ts. I'm an ENTP and I think morals are relative just because it seems logically obvious. It's not because of any gut feeling or anything.

  4. #44
    Senior Member BlahBlahNounBlah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paintmuffin View Post
    If I hypothetically bought flowers for someone to show how I appreciate them, I still probably used Ne+Ti to arrive at that action.
    I have to agree with this one. I don't buy people flowers, from the heart, because I think it's a trite gesture and the flowers are just going to die anyway so who cares?

    But I would brainstorm all of the possible things I could give a person and then narrow down the list based on what's likely to produce the best result. If that turns out to be flowers, then that's what I give.

  5. #45
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paintmuffin View Post
    Forgive me if I'm going in the complete wrong direction with this, but I don't think functions have anything to do with catching keys or using tape measures. From my understanding, functions have to do with how you process information and use it to make decisions. As an ENTP, I "use" Ne+Ti for just about everything, including using tape measures and catching keys. Doing those things doesn't mean that my Te and Se suddenly flourish. My thought process still applies. I just happen to be "illustrating" a function. If I hypothetically bought flowers for someone to show how I appreciate them, I still probably used Ne+Ti to arrive at that action. Fe is an extremely internal thing for me, a slight impulse to maintain my relationships with other people that hardly slips into my decision-making... and when it does, it's usually misleading. I'm not exactly great with people. I just fake it most of the time.
    MBTI does not measure ability. It measures preference. We all have the ability to use all eight functions. Our type tells us what functions we prefer to use. For example every type can participate in a group brainstorming session, however ENTP's would really love that sort of thing while ISTJ's would get tired of it pretty quickly. Every type can follow the "measure twice, cut once" rule of carpentry, but ISTJ's would find doing this very comfortable, while ENTP's would be bored out of their minds.

    The functions also cover very basic processes. Every time you decide to catch something thrown at you, you are using Se. Every time you make a measurement you are using Te. Every time a Sensor uses their imagination they are using either Ne or Ni.

    When I buy my wife flowers I am using Fe because I'm expressing my values to her. It's possible to buy flowers using another function. Say you buy someone flowers because you know they'll complain if they don't. Then that is a decision based on Thinking rather than Feeling. However if you buy someone a gift to show your appreciation of them, then you are using Feeling. Even if you brainstorm some really unusual gift and give it in the most unusual fashion, you are simply combining Ne with Feeling. Feeling has to be in there somewhere if you are showing appreciation, because that is a value based decision.
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  6. #46
    Senior Member paintmuffin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    MBTI does not measure ability. It measures preference. We all have the ability to use all eight functions. Our type tells us what functions we prefer to use. For example every type can participate in a group brainstorming session, however ENTP's would really love that sort of thing while ISTJ's would get tired of it pretty quickly. Every type can follow the "measure twice, cut once" rule of carpentry, but ISTJ's would find doing this very comfortable, while ENTP's would be bored out of their minds.

    The functions also cover very basic processes. Every time you decide to catch something thrown at you, you are using Se. Every time you make a measurement you are using Te. Every time a Sensor uses their imagination they are using either Ne or Ni.

    When I buy my wife flowers I am using Fe because I'm expressing my values to her. It's possible to buy flowers using another function. Say you buy someone flowers because you know they'll complain if they don't. Then that is a decision based on Thinking rather than Feeling. However if you buy someone a gift to show your appreciation of them, then you are using Feeling. Even if you brainstorm some really unusual gift and give it in the most unusual fashion, you are simply combining Ne with Feeling. Feeling has to be in there somewhere if you are showing appreciation, because that is a value based decision.
    You have a point with the Feeling & the flowers. However I still don't think the functions can be "used." I don't feel my cognitive processes whirring when I roll out a tape measure because I am neither processing information nor making a decision. In fact, the reason I'm using the tape measure is probably from some earlier decision I made that has nothing to do with Te. Because I don't make decisions based on Te, even when my actions suggest it.

    But alas! We are getting off topic!
    A colleague of the great scientist James Watson remarked that Watson was always “lounging around, arguing about problems instead of doing experiments.” He concluded that “There is more than one way of doing good science.”
    It was Watson’s form of idleness, the scientist went on to say, that allowed him to solve “the greatest of all biological problems: the discovery of the structure of DNA.” It's a point worth remembering in a society overly concerned with efficiency.

  7. #47
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    Here is my take on this whole thing.

    All people use all eight functions. Our type simply describes which functions we prefer. For example my type, ENTP, says that I'm an extravert who prefers Intuition the most. It also says I prefer to use Ti over Fi to support my intuition. That is all it means to be an ENTP. You can tell me what my tertiary and inferior functions are supposed to be, but the introverted or extraverted aspects of these functions are largely irrelevant.

    Let me elaborate. My personal preference for functions as an ENTP is really Intuition -> Thinking -> Feeling -> Sensing. I say Ne is my dominant function because I am an extravert. Once you get to supposed tertiary and inferior functions the introversion/extraversion aspect is so subtle that it doesn't really matter. Type only describes preference and not ability, and in reality when we use the 6 other functions that we don't particularly prefer it is because real life demands we do so. When I use a clock or a tape measure I rely on Te. When someone throws me some keys I rely on Se to catch them. When I see starving children on TV my heart goes out to them and that is Fi. When I buy my wife flowers to show her I appreciate her, that is Fe.

    All I can really say about Fe, Fi, Se and Si is that I prefer Feeling over Sensing. I prefer both Fe and Fi over Se and Si. However I since my first two preferences are Intuition and Thinking the introversion/extraversion aspect of Feeling and Sensing doesn't really matter to me. We all use all eight functions, and our type only describes the two we prefer the most.
    ...In other words, the other functions are normally undifferentiated.
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  8. #48
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paintmuffin View Post
    You have a point with the Feeling & the flowers. However I still don't think the functions can be "used." I don't feel my cognitive processes whirring when I roll out a tape measure because I am neither processing information nor making a decision. In fact, the reason I'm using the tape measure is probably from some earlier decision I made that has nothing to do with Te. Because I don't make decisions based on Te, even when my actions suggest it.

    But alas! We are getting off topic!
    Our brain is working even when we do very simple actions. When the tape measure tells us the wood is 15 inches long and as a result we decide the wood is 15 inches long, then we are using Te. It is a very simple thing, but the brain still has to process information even for very basic activities. Now if you are thinking about which function you used to actually want to pick up the tape measure and want to use it, then that is another matter entirely.

    (BTW, I am using the word "used" here very loosely.)


    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    ...In other words, the other functions are normally undifferentiated.
    That is essentially what I'm saying. (Although if pressed I'd make some subtle distinctions.)
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  9. #49
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlahBlahNounBlah View Post
    Not particularly. I have difficulty remembering people. But I generally think that what was in the past is in the past and it's over. I might remember that someone made me mad, but I remember it almost like it happened in a book or to someone else.
    I think this may also be Ne at work. I will fixate on my emo response for someone (perhaps the same fixation Katsuni described in the ENTP shrug-except for an entp it is irritation/annoyance) for a few days. Once I find something to distract me, I let it go and then dont care at all. So, no I do not carry it with me. I endlessly forgive and then stuff go.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlahBlahNounBlah View Post
    But I also think all people are connected and there's joy in experiencing that connection (in theory). Is the "in theory" part what makes me not an Fi?
    Once my and amargith had a convo about how Fi users connect. Now that I know what to look for I can make those same connections with ISTJs and INTJs. We make eye contact and there is just an understanding...

    Quote Originally Posted by King-Of-Despair View Post
    I've found that Fi in an ENTP will leave them unsure of the psychological distance between them and others (which has probably been seen in some profiles about the place). I read it a while ago and thought: wtf? It seems to mean that you don't really know how others see you or your actions without them saying it, it results in not knowing where you stand in a relation, and you probably end up crossing some borders that you shouldn't.Fe supposedly makes us want to build a sort of atmosphere (or is what we use to build an atmosphere? not sure). It might be responsible for encouragement of others to get involved.

    I've often completely ignored my convictions of others, and I've been just as friendly to them as I would anyone else, no idea what functions would cause that.
    So the first part-this fascinates me. I have seen this a bunch in several of my ENTPs.

    I rarely make direct sustained eye contact with people. Glances, smiles, lots of looking up and thinking-but nothing like the Ti stares you guys do. The other day I was pondering this and I realized that if I make direct eye contact with others and relax the Te barrier-I feel horrifically overwhelmed. My first thread here I described people as "people blobs". I dont have to SEE them to understand thier mood or how to interact with them. If I actually do watch them I feel like they are flowing into me. Fi Information overload.

    Just having them walk in the room, a quick glance will feed me massive amounts of information about "how" they are. (With the always present caveat that I cannot know what they think and may misinterrpret)

    For me I think Ne observes information about the person, then Fi forms a "reflection" of them internally, which is constantly remodeled by incoming information. That reflection is what Fi uses when making choices about how to interact with that person. (Does Ti do this-make an internal model of the problem you are trying to solve?)

    So for an ENTP-it seems like the more Ti they use, the less Fi they use-thus the more they have to watch people intensely to understand the unspoken cues. Fe gives you info about groups-which I lack utterly. Fi gives you info about individuals.

    So it isnt uncommon for my ENTPs to not understand how they are projecting at an individual level onto another person-or what that person thinks of them-especially in the moment. They cant use Fi to "analyze" that person internally with a reflection and readapt. Instead they use Fe social standards for behavior to self regulate.

    Let me know how this sounds, this could all be bullshit, so call me on it if it doesnt sound right. you guys are the experts

    The second part:
    This sounds like the way my entp friend describes her Fe. It makes her okay with being nice to people she does not like. That is very hard for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlahBlahNounBlah View Post
    I have to agree with this one. I don't buy people flowers, from the heart, because I think it's a trite gesture and the flowers are just going to die anyway so who cares?

    But I would brainstorm all of the possible things I could give a person and then narrow down the list based on what's likely to produce the best result. If that turns out to be flowers, then that's what I give.
    Fi makes me give my entp best friend flowers. They are stupid, and die and she takes each batch of them and hangs them to dry in her office. I pick the purple ones becuase she likes them or sometime red-orange crazy ones. Her ESTJ friend just bought her a beautiful arrangement that cost like 100 bucks. I would never do that-but I made her bracelet with red and blue beads with the red ones being there for Te courage. (My Te just pointed out to me that Fi is fucking looney, FYI. It also says if she tells anyone I did that I will punch her in the nose.)

  10. #50
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    sorry blah, I just realized your thread was specific to NTs with Fi. Alas Ne drags me off topic. But it is page 5....

    anyways one last thought...not sure why but all of ENTPs and ESTPs have become fans of me writing them insane Fi blackberry poetry. I now have a fan club. I dont know if becuase you guys dont use Fi, it is fun to play with in short doses or what. (I love bukowski as it is so Se heavy....maybe it's the same idea)

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