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Thread: NT Leadership

  1. #11
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    As an ENTJ-influenced ENTP who finds himself in charge of lots of people quite often along with his ENTJ colleagues, we often seem to find ourselves being put up against the wall and shot by the 'nice squad' for daring to think that, as the boss, it might just be part of our job to tell people to do things.

    Ha! No, no, no, what were we thinking! We have to ASK people, of course! I mean, what kind of moron thinks that just because he has a billion things to coordinate and dozens of deadlines, and just because he has a load of underlings who seem to prefer to scratch their arses and play WoW all day while people are waiting for them to communicate something, that he has a right to occasionally give the staff a gentle, yet well-deserved bollocking without them bursting into tears and quitting?

    And what, I mean what people, kind of leader can REALLY function in an environment where people are constantly threatening to quit over the omission of a 'please' or 'thank you'?

    Trouble is that leadership requires Te, and Te and democracy just don't get along. They're mutually exclusive, IMO. But it seems every damn office has to be a democratic commune these days ffs...

    Can people please tell me just exactly how they expect a guy to get anything done whilst constantly stopping to consult everyone as to their job satisfaction, whether they feel they have 'ownership' of the projects they're involved in, and when you're not allowed to simply take it as read that something being part of someone's job description means they're sorta duty bound to do it, without you having to consult them to see if they mind every time before you tell them to do it?
    In hardcore Te-lead environments, people tend to experience burnout because of their relentless Te overseers (this is from experience). I've noticed in these environments people are afraid to take time off, are stressed out, don't feel comfortable criticizing The Management, and cutthroat competitiveness is encouraged as a means to success. Wow, that sounds like most of the American workforce.

    Examples include, people coming in when they're sick spreading their pestilence to others because their NTJ boss came in to work a when he had the flu himself to finalize projects and he fully expects you to do the same thing, or coming to work following after his father's funeral, OR when another coworker suddenly dies of a heart attack telling his subordinates that it happened two days ago and they need to start refocusing (!!!), ignoring/unaware of the interpersonal conflicts between employees which contributes to lagging morale, not taking into consideration the mental health of employees (sometimes people just want to take a day off, no they're not sick, they just want to enjoy the weather or hang out with their kids), and a myriad of others.

    When employees are asked about the direction of the business, they begin to take ownership and feel more responsible for and loyal towards their employer. Why is ownership important to people? Well, 1) they don't feel like the cog in the wheel they really are because they're been given a measure of control in the decision-making process, 2) leadership is transparent and this may assure them that no shady dealings are happening at the top, 3) sometimes people just like to vent and voice their opinions because they feel powerless over their lives. You can get fired without two weeks notice, lose your health insurance, be laid off or outsourced, strike because the union says so, so many things are out of workers control so what's so hard about soliciting feedback? Considering that most of the American workforce are SJs who value security and belonging, and another large chunk are SPs who value freedom, which having a steady income provides both of, I'm not very surprised that the NT (esp. NTJ) is meet with resistance.

    Go look at Fortune's Best Companies to Work For. They're the type of businesses that provide on site day care or don't start threatening a woman that she's going to lose her job if she wants to stay with her newborn for more than 12 weeks, let's employees chose their health insurance provides, has flex work schedules or telecommuting, gives employees at least two weeks vacation each year including holidays, frequent company outings (picnics, luncheons, games, etc.), salary increases or bonuses, have tuition reimbursement if employees want to increase their skill sets, encourages room for growth, employees don't feel like they'll be fired at the drop of a hat, and basically taking into consideration THE HUMAN ELEMENT. It's possible for a business to actually be productive, make profit, and run efficiently and still treat their employees with respect and not as batteries.

    From Fortune magazine:

    Best benefits
    Health care
    Fourteen companies on this year's list pay 100% of their employees' health-care premiums.

    Child care
    Almost one-third of the Best Companies (33) offer an onsite child-care center. Here are the 5 with the least expensive, average monthly rates
    .
    Work-life balance
    The top 10 Best Companies where employees feel "encouraged to balance their work and personal life."

    Telecommuting
    Of the 79 Best Companies that allow employees to telecommute or work at home at least 20% of the time, these five have the highest percentage of telecommuters.

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    25 companies on this year's list offer fully paid sabbaticals.

    Unusual perks
    These seven companies found unusual ways to keep their workers happy. Yes, we're jealous.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    In hardcore Te-lead environments, people tend to experience burnout because of their relentless Te overseers (this is from experience). I've noticed in these environments people are afraid to take time off, are stressed out, don't feel comfortable criticizing The Management, and cutthroat competitiveness is encouraged as a means to success. Wow, that sounds like most of the American workforce.

    Examples include, people coming in when they're sick spreading their pestilence to others because their NTJ boss came in to work a when he had the flu himself to finalize projects and he fully expects you to do the same thing, or coming to work following after his father's funeral, OR when another coworker suddenly dies of a heart attack telling his subordinates that it happened two days ago and they need to start refocusing (!!!), ignoring/unaware of the interpersonal conflicts between employees which contributes to lagging morale, not taking into consideration the mental health of employees (sometimes people just want to take a day off, no they're not sick, they just want to enjoy the weather or hang out with their kids), and a myriad of others.

    When employees are asked about the direction of the business, they begin to take ownership and feel more responsible for and loyal towards their employer. Why is ownership important to people? Well, 1) they don't feel like the cog in the wheel they really are because they're been given a measure of control in the decision-making process, 2) leadership is transparent and this may assure them that no shady dealings are happening at the top, 3) sometimes people just like to vent and voice their opinions because they feel powerless over their lives. You can get fired without two weeks notice, lose your health insurance, be laid off or outsourced, strike because the union says so, so many things are out of workers control so what's so hard about soliciting feedback? Considering that most of the American workforce are SJs who value security and belonging, and another large chunk are SPs who value freedom, which having a steady income provides both of, I'm not very surprised that the NT (esp. NTJ) is meet with resistance.

    Go look at Fortune's Best Companies to Work For. They're the type of businesses that provide on site day care or don't start threatening a woman that she's going to lose her job if she wants to stay with her newborn for more than 12 weeks, let's employees chose their health insurance provides, has flex work schedules or telecommuting, gives employees at least two weeks vacation each year including holidays, frequent company outings (picnics, luncheons, games, etc.), salary increases or bonuses, have tuition reimbursement if employees want to increase their skill sets, encourages room for growth, employees don't feel like they'll be fired at the drop of a hat, and basically taking into consideration THE HUMAN ELEMENT. It's possible for a business to actually be productive, make profit, and run efficiently and still treat their employees with respect and not as batteries.

    From Fortune magazine:
    Your perception of a Te environment is biased. Te is certainly not about being cut-throat. It's about truth and justice, which is just the opposite. Everyone gets what he deserves based on competence. The only cut-throats are the ones who lack moral integrity and that has nothing to do with psychological type. You are demonizing a function and it is a pity because that defeats the purpose of the MBTI.

    What we need is leadership that rewards people based on their competence, results and enforces the same rules for everyone. We've got enough of the politically correct crap of catering to the feelings of employer A if you say you like red and he likes blue, who sucks up the best to the boss and who plays nice with who. While it's all good in ideal, practically speaking the "HUMAN ELEMENT" becomes a world of stinking interpersonal politics, where you have to watch for your every word and behavior and where people can't be themselves and have to conform to ridiculous social norms such as talking at 11am in front of the coffee machine when you should be working. We need to get out of a world where we blame others for giving their opinion and where we reinforce adults to continue behaving like kids that need to be babysitted or else they'll pull a temper tantrum if they don't get the "positivity" they think they deserve.

    I've seen people-friendly environments filled with social workers and they were the worst in terms of interpersonal harassment. You think burnout happens the most in "Te" type companies... you should work in a hospital or in education. The levels of burnout there are much higher than in corporations and also the politics are far dirtier and cut-throat.

  3. #13
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick View Post
    Your perception of a Te environment is biased. Te is certainly not about being cut-throat. It's about truth and justice, which is just the opposite. Everyone gets what he deserves based on competence. The only cut-throats are the ones who lack moral integrity and that has nothing to do with psychological type. You are demonizing a function and it is a pity because that defeats the purpose of the MBTI.
    Dude, didn't you just say something about fake Fe types? I'm not demonizing Te, I'm just stating unfortunate circumstances of bad Te. It's amazing to me how people think they can just bash Fe (and Si), and everyone jumps on the bandwagon with their horror stories. Let me add mine to the mythology.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick View Post
    What we need is leadership that rewards people based on their competence, results and enforces the same rules for everyone.
    I'm all for this. I agree with you. But you know this doesn't happen. Why isn't it happening?

    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick View Post
    While it's all good in ideal, practically speaking the "HUMAN ELEMENT" becomes a world of stinking interpersonal politics, where you have to watch for your every word and behavior and where people can't be themselves and have to conform to ridiculous social norms such as talking at 11am in front of the coffee machine when you should be working. We need to get out of a world where we blame others for giving their opinion and where we reinforce adults to continue behaving like kids that need to be babysitted or else they'll pull a temper tantrum if they don't get the "positivity" they think they deserve.
    I don't deny that it's a slippery slope from respect for employees and employees milking the system because management is lax. Those environments are just as bad because there's no structure. It's amazing to me why I as a Fe dominant, don't really feel the need to conform to ridiculous social norms that I agree are a waste of time, yet I still manage not have people clamoring to put a knife between my ribs. You know what I do when I see people gathered around the coffeemaker in the morning? I , wave, say good morning, and keep walking. That's it. It's not complicated! You know what I do when I don't want to have lunch with my coworkers? "Hey I think I'm going to have lunch at my cube today. " Not a problem. What happens when I don't feel like going to happy hour? "I'm feeling tired, I think I'm going to go home. " I'm convinced people build up resentment towards these "rituals" because they don't realize how unimportant they are. I think it's performance anxiety, which can he conquered with deep breathing and medication.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick View Post
    I've seen people-friendly environments filled with social workers and they were the worst in terms of interpersonal harassment. You think burnout happens the most in "Te" type companies... you should work in a hospital or in education. The levels of burnout there are much higher than in corporations and also the politics are far dirtier and cut-throat.
    Hospitals, schools, and social workers are extremely high stress environments but it's not because of too little Te. The jobs are demanding because they have the most contact with people, exemplifying the complexity of the situation that office environments try to distill.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  4. #14
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    In hardcore Te-lead environments, people tend to experience burnout because of their relentless Te overseers (this is from experience). I've noticed in these environments people are afraid to take time off, are stressed out, don't feel comfortable criticizing The Management, and cutthroat competitiveness is encouraged as a means to success.
    Yeah I know what you mean, I've seen places where people are treated that way. However the case I was ranting about, the people in question have no excuse to feel that way and I know they don't feel that way.

    But yeah, I get what you're saying and I sorta agree that it's kind of the only realistic choice, even though I hate it. It's just frustrating for me because I find it slightly retarded that someone likes and values the DELUSION that they MATTER, as if they simply can't handle the harsh reality that they're just there for the money, I only want them there for the money they make me, so if we cut the crap and just all get on with our jobs and seek our 'personal validation' in our PERSONAL worlds, we might be able to get something done!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick View Post
    What we need is leadership that rewards people based on their competence, results and enforces the same rules for everyone. We've got enough of the politically correct crap of catering to the feelings of employer A if you say you like red and he likes blue, who sucks up the best to the boss and who plays nice with who. While it's all good in ideal, practically speaking the "HUMAN ELEMENT" becomes a world of stinking interpersonal politics, where you have to watch for your every word and behavior and where people can't be themselves and have to conform to ridiculous social norms such as talking at 11am in front of the coffee machine when you should be working. We need to get out of a world where we blame others for giving their opinion and where we reinforce adults to continue behaving like kids that need to be babysitted or else they'll pull a temper tantrum if they don't get the "positivity" they think they deserve.
    OMG I fucking love ENTJ's! Did anyone get that part where I mentioned how much I love ENTJ's?

    Oh and by the way, my personal leadership style isn't hardcore Te at all. It's hardcore Ne - I'm very easy going and flexible as to who does what and when, and very accommodating. Sometimes a bit of Ti comes out when people ask for my opinions, but by far the majority of what people see function-wise from me is an overwhelming flurry of Ne.

    But just occasionally, when people let me down and seriously piss me off, or when they're slacking and trying to weedle out with excuses, they see a bit of Te that I sorta 'borrow', and THAT is when they start whining like hell. In reality they'd been working under Te-generated plans and stuff the whole time (coming from my partner), only they were presented to them in the Ne-Ti way. I haven't found any great need to exercise F type stuff in the business environment with any but the most unreasonable and whiny employees - who haven't lasted long.

    Basically, you shouldn't have to persuade someone to just do their job - that's what the salary is for. And you shouldn't have to bribe and reward someone simply to do what's no more than their duty. Now, if they go ABOVE their duty - fine, I'm the first one in with the medals and thankyou cakes. But I'll echo Maverick's thoughts on how people do often seem like a bunch of whining, spoilt children who believe they shouldn't have to refrain from hitting their sisters unless there's a bag of candy in it for them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Thanks, I'll check that out. It's not me though, who's in over their head - I've 14 years of leadership experience and running businesses that I own, very successfully and with very few hiccups or spats with staff. I've been called a great boss by a lot of people and had people pestering me for jobs after they've done some voluntary stuff, because they just like working with me.

    The problem is more that certain staff are in over their heads - not because I put them there, but because they insisted on putting themselves there, and they're too over sensitive and emotionally fragile to be able to admit it and either ask for help or let someone else take over. And they don't tell anyone this situation is going on - not because I'm not approachable (I'm the one everyone approaches with messages for the ENTJ precisely because they see me as approachable and he's not), but because their pride and ego are in the way.
    Ah I see but if you've been running a company for 14 years you must know that by the end of the day, the problem you describe above falls back on the leadership - right? If the workload an employee takes on is more than the person can handle, the danger of errors caused stress or lack of carry though encreases. As leaders, we have the overall responsorbility when it comes to making sure our companies or organizations runs smoothly and a part of this job is stepping in if our employees displays a behaviour which can endanger our business.

    Not this company - it's a charitable organisation. The goal is to help people. People can't be helped if the organisation falls apart because certain people aren't doing their jobs.
    My point exactly!

    My hole that I pick in that F line of reasoning is that in order to make everyone happy, you have to organise your priorities in such a way that means no money gets made, and in the meantime while you're waiting for everyone to decide they're happy, the company goes under due to lack of funds. And then when you try to get funds, you can't get any because nobody will invest, seeing your company now as slow and inefficient.
    Oh yes, I've seen inefficient F dominated organizations where people lost focus of the part about earning money. Both lines or reasoning really do have their strengths and weaknesses. However, a focus on creating a healthy company culture where people thrive does not equal inefficiency. It's about making sure people deliver their best performance over a longer period of time (hiering and fiering people is a costly affair).

    Besides which, staff these days seem to have extremely unreaslistic expectations of how 'happy' they have a right to be before they should have to do any work. But none of these things applies to the leaders - we have to just work our nuts off whether we like it or not, while they're supposed to be allowed an afternoon off because they're a bit out of sorts after they realised their credit card was maxed out, or because something X said made them feel "a bit tearful". No matter how 'tearful' or out of sorts I might feel, I have to just plough the fuck ahead and put it all aside.
    Ofcourse, with leadership we obtain a larger power/influence (plus a higher salery) than our employees and with that comes a larger responsorbility.

    I dunno, I just don't see how business can function like that. Whatever happened to leaving your shit at the door and getting on with your work? Especially in a charitable organisation where everyone who is there has CHOSEN to be there and professes to believe in the work and the project. It's not as if we're dealing with a bunch of school leavers who had a limited range of options for entry level jobs. We're talking here about seasoned, highly qualified professionals who could take any job they want.
    Can function in what way?
    Verbal IQ Test

    SubFacor IQ score = 65
    Subscale percentile = 1

    You appear to have a very limited vocabulary and lack the ability to identify the correct responses for a variety of different questions. A deficient vocabulary can hinder you in many ways; you may struggle to find the correct words when speaking, fail to understand what others are communicating to you, or come across as inarticulate to others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    In hardcore Te-lead environments, people tend to experience burnout because of their relentless Te overseers (this is from experience). I've noticed in these environments people are afraid to take time off, are stressed out, don't feel comfortable criticizing The Management, and cutthroat competitiveness is encouraged as a means to success. Wow, that sounds like most of the American workforce.
    You seem to ascribe things into Te which aren't really there. It's ironic though that dominant Te's often place such little value in displaying Fe. About half of the working force are Fs (at least in Denmark)

    Te: Contingency planning, scheduling, and quantifying utilize the process of extraverted Thinking. Extraverted Thinking helps us organize our environment and ideas through charts, tables, graphs, flow charts, outlines, and so on. At its most sophisticated, this process is about organizing and monitoring people and things to work efficiently and productively. Empirical thinking is at the core of extraverted Thinking when we challenge someone someone’s ideas based on the logic of the facts in front of us or lay out reasonable explanations for decisions or conclusions made, often trying to establish order in someone else’s thought process. In written or verbal communication, extraverted Thinking helps us easily follow someone else’s logic, sequence, or organization. It also helps us notice when something is missing, like when someone says he or she is going to talk about four topics and talks about only three. In general, it allows us to compartmentalize many aspects of our lives so we can do what is necessary to accomplish our objectives.
    Verbal IQ Test

    SubFacor IQ score = 65
    Subscale percentile = 1

    You appear to have a very limited vocabulary and lack the ability to identify the correct responses for a variety of different questions. A deficient vocabulary can hinder you in many ways; you may struggle to find the correct words when speaking, fail to understand what others are communicating to you, or come across as inarticulate to others.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Park View Post
    As leaders, we have the overall responsorbility when it comes to making sure our companies or organizations runs smoothly and a part of this job is stepping in if our employees displays a behaviour which can endanger our business.
    Yeah sure, I step in alright at these points - I give them a warning and then, if they do it again, fire them. My problem is when I give them a warning and instead of take it like a man (or whatever), they throw a hissy fit, burst into tears and threaten to quit if you don't apologise in front of everyone - for simply telling them off for not doing the job that THEY applied for, that THEY wanted and THEY get paid for.

    However, a focus on creating a healthy company culture where people thrive does not equal inefficiency.
    Agreed. But I think what a lot of people think about how much responsibility for this healthy culture rests on the boss to create, and how much on the employees themselves in a give-and-take fashion, is way out of line with reality.

    It's about making sure people deliver their best performance over a longer period of time (hiering and fiering people is a costly affair).
    It is? I'd hardly call the equivalent of US$10 for an advert in the local paper 'costly' And besides, there's never been a shortage yet when I've fired someone, of people behind them wanting to step into their place.

    And btw, I've only fired 1 person in all these years and only 2 have quit - one because she emmigrated and the other because he was about to be sprung for trying to forge cheques. Apart from that, 6 of the people with me have been for years, 2 since the beginning (there were only 3 of us in the beginning), and are perfectly happy. Given that I so rarely have any trouble with staff, but yet have consistently had trouble with these three current individuals (and am not the only one), I'm afraid that this time it really is their fault and they've gotta go.

    Sometimes I think people have to draw the line with how far you're going to keep saying everything's the boss' fault. Sometimes the boss can do everything in their power, everything they're supposed to do, and yet things still come falling down because of some useless minion that simply doesn't pull their weight and lets everyone else down.

    Can function in what way?
    With bosses having to be both businessmen and counsellors/morale officers.
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    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Te is about efficiency. Which means, either doing the most work in a given amount of time, or given an amount of work, finding the way to execute it in the shortest amount of time.

    If work is not unlimited, by usage of Te people actually gain leisure time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Te is about efficiency. Which means, either doing the most work in a given amount of time, or given an amount of work, finding the way to execute it in the shortest amount of time.

    If work is not unlimited, by usage of Te people actually gain leisure time.
    That's what I don't get that other people don't get! lol

    Dammit, where's the TRUST? Y'know, sometimes it's people who've been with me years, and they know that me and ENTJ over there together have never once led them astray, and yet still there doesn't seem to be an awful lot of simple trust that if they just bite their lips and do as they're fucking told, all will become clear and everyone will be better off. All the work will be done better, quicker, people will be paid more and have more time to chill out. But no, everyone wants to be a critic, everyone's gotta "contribute".

    After all, I don't pay by the hour - I pay fixed salaries. My staff don't have contracted hours, they just have to get their work done, and as long as they get it done and I don't have any more for them, they can go home or anything they like. I'll even sign their little billet from the state welfare people to say they worked whatever hours they're supposed to for entitlement to state childcare, even if they only worked half that time in reality, I don't care, I'm not legalistic - I just want the work done. I'd say that was more than reasonable. So it really is in their interests to show a little respect to the Te and y'know, big it up a bit heheh, instead of always knocking it every time it means they have to - gasp! - grit their teeth to get through something less than ideal! (oh, the trauma!!)
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    I think it's truly amazing that NTs fail to see what as an NF I see as an extraordinarily simple equation: Low morale=low productivity=low bottom line.

    It's bullshit to assume that F's do not see the bottom line. I know the goal and people are my tools to get there. Performance and effectiveness are primary goals even for someone Fe dominant like me. I take care of my tools even if it would be simpler to say "I need this and this done now...it's your job". I motivate people to work their asses off for less then $10 an hour every single day. It's amazing how easy it is to do and takes so little time. The funny thing is they are actually smiling (most of the time) while doing so. Fire everyone substitute, it's for the greater good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick
    I've seen people-friendly environments filled with social workers and they were the worst in terms of interpersonal harassment. You think burnout happens the most in "Te" type companies... you should work in a hospital or in education. The levels of burnout there are much higher than in corporations and also the politics are far dirtier and cut-throat.
    I worked for a company like this once too and it was horrible. Competency was not rewarded. You were at the whim of the social hierarchy. I have not returned to a 'helping' career since.
    "At points of clarity, I realize that my life on earth is meaningless, and that I am merely a pawn in a bigger game. A game I cannot possibly understand or have control of. Thankfully, before depression sets in, I drift back into my cloudy, bewildered daily routine." **Joel Patrick Warneke**

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