[INTJ] Friend INTJ academic competition

[Ghost of the dead horse]

So, I met this friend INTJ of mine at a time I was very obsessed with intelligence. It was the center of my life. I scored about 2,5-2.8 standard deviations up from the norm. I hadn't found many people like me. I met him, and he was 3.0-3.2 standard deviations above the norm, so about 0.5 std devs. I understood the intellectual pecking order was him on the top, me below. I've heard from more than a few people it's the other way, but I was IQ test religious back then.

He went on to pursue a career in academia. I sought him to be a friend supporting my intellectual pursuits, I hoped we could do some of them together. I wished he would have been my peer. I had moved from university studies (on the same field of study) to work after a few years and gathered street smarts. He, none.

We talked about mathematical modelling methods to reduce the time & space complexity of the calculation of sound propagation in architectural structures. He told about a few models, we discussed. I suggested a model that would make an aural "holograph" of a facet in an imaginary 3d structure, modelling the 3d space as an in-out function of the sounds going in and out. It was a novel finding, as none of the previous work suggested making a 2-dimensional image of both the phase and the amplitude and applying it to that context.

The thing is. Hmm. Well. He neglected the idea when he spoke about it. Lured me to tell my ideas of it. In the end, it wasn't supposed to be much anything. He used his authority I had given him to dismiss my ideas as not very worthy.

Half a year after he described a novel method exactly like the one I had described. No mention of my contribution to the subject. He had taken the idea as his own. In a way, I didn't mind. I'm not seeking the favor of the same academic people. But, in a way it hurt. Is he becoming another professor who just finds the brilliant ideas his students make and takes them in his own name?

I learned not to trust him too much. He's somewhat of a friend. Good friend, even, or okay, borderline. But.

He writes dozens of papers. He has years of more education than I. Our friendship hasn't been the same after I understood him using my ideas without proper credit. That's about the worst as it comes in academia.

What's so bad in giving credit to someone who's worth it?

I'm disappointed to be treated as just another person to be "gamed", especially when he tries to portray an image of intelligent but socially weak person, possibly someone who couldn't abuse his relationships.

 

[Haphazard]

...and?

 

[Ghost of the dead horse]

That's enough, silly. Perhaps there's enough of ideological INFx to believe I should forever not abuse people and wish same for myself, and it would somehow make me feel balanced in life and good feelings.

The other idea I thought about is to murder the people I want with an axe. Okay, bad joke. But, I don't really want to go all the way in me-against-the-world thing. I feel happier believing in the goodness of 0,1% of people as opposed to believing none of them are good. Per latest results, I'm much more happier than people in my group per age, wage, etc. Part of the happiness comes from believing. I wouldn't want to lose that. My belief about the goodness of extremely few people on earth is thin enough already, I wouldn't want to become disillusioned any more.

 

[SerengetiBetty]

I'd ask him about it, especially if he's a former friend.

Something similar happened to me as a French lit grad student. A professor who hadn't published any articles in a while took one of my papers from his class tweaked it here and there and published it. It wasn't even one of my best papers. It was pretty obvious to everyone because the department was small and everyone pretty much had their own way of interpreting things and it was clearly my way.
Imagine his embarrassment when I confronted him about it?

In any case, I didn't pursue the matter 1)because it was related to a century and book I cared nothing about and would never write anything related again and 2) I figured the guy needed the steal more than I needed the credit or as Kanye puts it "I forgot better shit than you ever thought of"

 

[Haphazard]

If the amount of time between your explanation and his was somewhat significant it could be that he forgot you saying it and stored it in his brain, and then when it came up again he thought it was his.

This happens.

 

[Ghost of the dead horse]

I don't seek much purpose with this, but I'm sad about it. I thought about what was being said about getting the kind of treatment one allows for themselves. Putting him on a pedestal even though he feels he's competing of the same things with me was.. hmm. I don't have a word. I just wanted to express my sadness, that's the most of it.

I have learning of my own to do as well. It'll turn out for the good.

Perhaps there is a point.

All of these kinds of experiences point me to be ruthless, not to love the random person, not to give them benefit of the doubt etc. Deep inside (and this is no joke) I've believed in my youth we're in this together at core, although most of the surface seems to be filled with self-serving ideals. My ideas have become more real, I'm rather realistic and all that right now.. but there's some core in me that tells I should believe. An idealistic core. Yes, I'm much idealistic. All of this just depressed me, saddens me..

I've joked that ENTJ see the world as a theater of war, and I know I could take that viewpoint for myself quite well. Better than most. But, there's that idealist core in me that prevents me from fully adopting that world view.

Perhaps I'm trying to find ways to handle the competitive life and still have care for my fellow man. It's tough to balance, but I hate how everything - the life itself - is encouraging me to be a double-faced bastard. I won't be, but I'll have to accept a life with less fulfilling ideals if I want to survive. Really, it's hard not turning to crime.

 

[Athenian200]

If the amount of time between your explanation and his was somewhat significant it could be that he forgot you saying it and stored it in his brain, and then when it came up again he thought it was his.

This happens.

Agreed. That kind of thing happens to me, too.

If it didn't, though... the best thing to remember, is that NTs are bastards. Especially NT writers. They WILL abuse their relationships and discussions with you in order to get ideas for their books. Never turn your back on them...

A certain "Iconoclast" did this to me, for instance. When I read his book, it was so obvious that he had formulated most of his ideas from discussions with me and others.

 

[Ghost of the dead horse]

I'll ask him about it. Good night.

 

[Uytuun]

So, I met this friend INTJ of mine at a time I was very obsessed with intelligence.

Maybe it is different at second sight - maybe it's not as a literal a copy as you think and you've "merely" inspired him, maybe he forgot you told him and the idea hatched in his brain when the circumstances were right and maybe he simply forgot and independently came to the same conclusion.

Or he could be a dick in which case I'd confront him.

Also, official crediting of something you say in a casual conversation as a non-academic person...not really done. Of course if he's aware you had the same idea, he could've at least told you "hey, I'm using that idea of yours after all...it turned out to have potential"...

You seem to care a lot about these things for an ENTJ...or an ENTJ might care, but you do it in a non-I'll-fucking-obliterate-him way.

 

[Ghost of the dead horse]

Well, I'm not required to play my type to the stereotype, am I? Good night.

 

[Athenian200]

You seem to care a lot about these things for an ENTJ...or an ENTJ might care, but you do it in a non-I'll-fucking-obliterate-him way.

Well, he's not 100% ENTJ. He's tested as several types. Pretty much, the only thing that's out of the question for him is xSFx. I'd say he's only about 60% ENTJ, and the other 40% of it is INFx.

So basically, he's sort of an ENTJ, but he's not super ENTJ.

 

[Jaguar]

If the amount of time between your explanation and his was somewhat significant it could be that he forgot you saying it and stored it in his brain, and then when it came up again he thought it was his.

This happens.

Santtu's idea was specific and meaningful to sound propagation.
It's not like he gave a common idea, such as how to broil a steak.
Certain types of ideas don't just get "mistaken" for your own.

I say the guy knew damn well what he was doing in swiping his idea.
Those who can't think for themselves, steal.
I've seen it too many times, in business.

 

[Halla74]

Santtu's idea was specific and meaningful to sound propagation.
It's not like he gave a common idea, such as how to broil a steak.
Certain types of ideas don't just get "mistaken" for your own.

I say the guy knew damn well what he was doing in swiping his idea.
Those who can't think for themselves, steal.
I've seen it too many times, in business.

Well said, Governor!

BUSINESS PROVERB:
--------------------
"Imitation is easier than Innovation."

HALLA PROVERB:
----------------
"Stealing is even easier than imitation for really lazy, greedy bastards. In business TRUST NO ONE!!!"

 

[Jaguar]

HALLA PROVERB:
----------------
"Stealing is even easier than imitation for really lazy, greedy bastards. In business TRUST NO ONE!!!"

 

[Kalach]

For what it's worth, it seems to be a feature of INTJ/ENTJ relationships that the ENTJ is in the more vulnerable position. There's some technical stuff to explain it, but either way, it's something I've noticed, to my chagrin. The INTJ's going to have a little better control over the expression of his feelings but not really enough for him to be confident about dealing with what an ENTJ wants to express. Both get stuck. (And the other side of the coin is the INTJ is totally screwed when it comes to putting things into action together with the ENTJ.)

I'd still mention the origin of the idea to him. The discussion won't go well unless you're both really aware that you'll both be defensive about owning your own work, and maybe not even then.

ENTJ: "I liked having had that idea, it was cool."
INTJ: "I worked on it a lot before I published, man!"
ENTJ: "Sure you did, I know, I just liked that I knew enough to create something new too."
INTJ: "It's my fucking paper, man! But jeez, if you want I'll mention you next time, whatever."
ENTJ: "Do what you want, it's none of my business. You're really a prick sometimes, you know?"

And so on.

 

[FDG]

Yeah, it happened to me too with a professor. What can I say? I don't even think it was one of my best ideas, so I didn't care. But if you think it was a good, original idea you should confront him. Be prepared to nothing happening, though, since there's no way of proving it was your idea, unfortunately. The worst part was that the prof. said that he didn't like the idea, it didn't really seem sound or realistic, etc. then here it goes, he publishes a paper on it, LOLZ.

I think that academia teaches you to be ruthless with this type of thing (that's also why I'm never going to get into it, I'd prefer to cut wood). I remeber reading an article on Scientific American where a post-doc said that she doesn't write on her blog what she's recently found out because the only time she did, a colleague stole her idea in 2 days.

Other anedoctal experiences: I think that professors are paranoid about imitation and copypaste from papers. I've been accused 3 times, so far, of having "copied" something (without the professor checking out on the internet - just at first sight of my paper) because the idea I had was "too good" (????????). It seems that many of them are resigned that every student should be a mindless non-interested drone, and they are all-knowing gods.

 

[SciVo]

At least you could use the fact that your idea was worth writing up after all to pressure him into acknowledging that A. you were right that it was interesting and he was wrong to initially dismiss it, and B. you obviously have an effing awesome creative intelligence since he luuuuuurves your ideas so much. This goal would sidestep his likely insecurity in the more-obvious conflict over who deserves the credit, while satisfying your former desire for his approval.

 

[Ghost of the dead horse]

I talked this briefly with my gf today and I'm in peace with it now. Probably an honest mistake, plus if the idea was too "unproven" for him the first time, it probably just entered his subconscious, until he had forgotten.

I was trying to help him with this thing originally, so I was never seeking more than acknowledgment.

My other INTJ did a same kind of thing with an innocent idea I thought - when I told I had said it so many years earlier, he laughed and said, yes I had.

I can talk about the thing in the OP, too.

Thank you for your support.

Nice thinking, SciVo.

 

[musicheck]

Lots of good ideas are tossed around- talk is cheap. Formalizing them and doing the work is the hard part. Fundamentally its not your paper (vague ideas do not count as coauthorship) but it may be appropriate to mention your name in the acknowledgments section. Nonetheless, if it really is your idea, the INTJ should at least confirm this verbally to you as a friend, even though in the grand scheme of writing a paper that's not nearly enough to make it "your work". In my experience, those that cite generously are usually the better researchers- they have enough ideas to go around.

 

[Ghost of the dead horse]

Who said it was vague? I did enough work to make it obvious it was workable and did the required thing better and with fewer resources. Formal proof lacked, but it was enough to be worked on with knowledge it'll be a big improvement. Besides, like the amount of work done is saving anything. Most of the great ideas can be condensed in few good paragraphs. Given that, it's easy in a way to write up the rest - little lateral thinking will be required, though it will require a great deal of other kinds of thinking.

Actually, I wonder why he hasn't been able to introduce much of an improvement over anything, apart from the obvious stuff. What he's accomplished is one slightly novel method. He mostly summarizes people's findings of a subject, gives a cross-section about the current research to a topic - and does quite basic work, with the minimal innovative step and quite maximal amount of writing per unit of innovation expressed.

What could I say, he's like an accountant in scientific process. Some papers he showed, I was nice to him but wondered if was preparing for a textbook or doing research. As if he was afraid to do a thing of his own. Perhaps not afraid, perhaps just unable.

His favorite thing must be the proof by exhaustion, his goal the finding of all the dead ends.

I could say, I take things like that for granted. Summary of prior work has it's uses.