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  1. #11
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xNFJiminy View Post
    Sometimes TJs don't express any feeling or non-verbally indicate responses when spoken to, and the lack of feedback can be taken as possible rejection or make people wonder what they've done wrong.

    There's also a risk when you're toning yourself down that will others notice that you're not being natural, which might unsettle them further.
    I agree. It's something I've had to teach my ENTJ's - that if you're happy, people expect you to SHOW it, and walking around with their customary po-face doesn't exactly put people at ease. Smiling goes a long way towards rectifying this.

    My former business partner was known as 'stone face' to one of our clients, simply because you could never tell what he was thinking or feeling by his face. He'd have a way of saying "Thank you, that's fine, I'll call you later" in a way that nobody had a clue whether he actually meant "that's wonderful, I'm in your debt and I'm so happy that you're someone I can rely on" or "just fuck off you insignificant insect and stop wasting my time with your shitty excuse for a project".

    Sometimes I used to stand behind this client when he was talking to said partner, making gestures and expressions for him to copy so he could appear more personable... lol that was fun

    Just remember people by nature, an awful lot of them, are quite insecure, and if not given a reason to believe you like them and are happy with them, will assume the opposite.

    And saying once or twice "I think you're cool" or "nice work" and then returning to the stone-faced default - doesn't count!!
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    And saying once or twice "I think you're cool" or "nice work" and then returning to the stone-faced default - doesn't count!!

  3. #13
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    I know this will sound funny but bear with me... (heh, getting to be a bit of a catchphrase for me...!)

    Two of the ENTJ's I know have made substantial progress in the whole 'being approachable' area of life by following this advice: pretend you're in love with the person you're talking to. Just imagine you are.

    I say this because being in love tends to be the ENTJ's Achilles heel - it's the one time when they become insecure, wobbly jellies like the rest of us mortals, and start to really give a shit what someone thinks of them, and to need constant reassurance, smiles, positive body language etc.

    So if you imagine what you'd need to see if you were in love with that person, then you have an idea what kind of thing they want to see from you, and what you're not doing to show them that you like them, are happy with them and appreciate them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Razor View Post
    Some other people, like my ENTP and ISTP friends, usually find hilarious what I do (whatever that is).
    Incidentally... so do I. Which is one reason why I haven't discouraged it as much as I should... I'm smirking now just thinking and picturing that 'whatever that is' that you guys do... heheh
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  4. #14
    Senior Member Dark Razor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post

    And saying once or twice "I think you're cool" or "nice work" and then returning to the stone-faced default - doesn't count!!
    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick View Post




    Actually, smilling does not come naturally to me, and if you tell me "just smile, that'll help to put people at easy" then I have to say , yeah well if I consciously try to smile then it will come across as fake, because after the smile I will immediatly be back to the "stone-faced" all-buisness interaction style.

    Also, if someone is talking to me, I try to focus on what they are telling me till they are finished and then give my response, without any unnecessary talking or interruptions. Though I have discovered that it is somehow necessary to make regular uh-huh noises and say something like "oh RLY?" or people will become awfully uncomfortable.

    Actually I find that distracting, because if I have to focus on how to create this response then I will miss things the person said, I'd rather solely focus on what the person says, how it is said is mostly irrelevant, unless it is in a personal setting. At work though there is basically just an exchange of information happening and irrelevancies should be ommited.

    I am also of the opinion that in buisness relations the concept or idea should count, not the person. so I am kind of annoyed by all the pressure to be fake "friendly" towards co-workers and buisness partners. Don't get me wrong, I always try to be polite, but what is expected in the ususal setting goes beyond that, it is expected that I look as if I personally like you, which I dont understand the necessity of, and I am also unable to display that "friendlieness", and even if I were I would not want to because it is not genuine.

    I remember when I first got to know my ENTP friend as a friend apart from school he said something like "OMG, you are so different than in school, I'd never have thought that."

    Yeah well, that was the professional setting, if you want to really get to know me, meet me outside of it, also, dont take my personality at work for all there is.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Razor View Post
    Actually, smilling does not come naturally to me...

    ...Though I have discovered that it is somehow necessary to make regular uh-huh noises and say something like "oh RLY?" or people will become awfully uncomfortable.
    And they say ENTJ's lack social graces?

    I'd rather solely focus on what the person says, how it is said is mostly irrelevant, unless it is in a personal setting. At work though there is basically just an exchange of information happening and irrelevancies should be ommited.

    I am also of the opinion that in buisness relations the concept or idea should count, not the person. so I am kind of annoyed by all the pressure to be fake "friendly" towards co-workers and buisness partners.
    Sigh... you and me both mate, you and me both. Unfortunately, they never will be, and though you and I are quite able to receive a stream of clear instructions without all the face-saving, ego-stroking, chummy-seeming pleases and thankyous, and awful lot of people seem to put a lot of store in those things - even when they're transparently insincere and meaningless.

    Take for example my INFP friend. Driving along the road, she comes to a sign that has "30mph" in flashing red lights. Underneath flash the words "thank you". She gestures to it and says "See? It's nice that they bother to do that, it doesn't take much to just be polite, does it? And because of that I don't mind doing what they say". I'm like...

    Yeah well, that was the professional setting, if you want to really get to know me, meet me outside of it, also, dont take my personality at work for all there is.
    Yeah well dude, if you're not going to take the advice that's given, why ask for help? I mean, if you're concerned, seriously, that you come across intimidating and unapproachable, then the only way to alter that image is to alter the behaviour that gives rise to it. If you're not willing to do that, then you just have to live with the result...

    'Tis just the way of things. You stick to your guns and do what you do best; I bend like the proverbial reed in order to be what's necessary for my objectives. You get called a stone-faced grouch and I get called a whimsical faker. Only people who get to know us will realise the truth, and until they get a glimpse of the truth, nobody will bother to get to know us. Catch 22 - which is why we hang out together (figuratively speaking I mean, our types) and fuck 'em.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  6. #16
    Senior Member htb's Avatar
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    But you must know, Substitute, that the question is half-rhetorical, along the lines of "why am I so lethal?"

    I don't particularly mind being thought standoffish or intimidating.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by htb View Post
    But you must know, Substitute, that the question is half-rhetorical, along the lines of "why am I so lethal?"

    I don't particularly mind being thought standoffish or intimidating.
    Yeah... but DR does seem to, from the OP.

    The problem isn't unique to ENTJ's though... I was just thinking of starting a thread about NT styles of leadership .... done.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  8. #18
    Senior Member creativeRhino's Avatar
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    When I first met my husband I thought he was intimidating and rather bossy. He could certainly "stare down" anybody he wanted to.

    What I learnt is -
    Passion/conviction/determination (all positive traits) sort of filter out of an ENTJ as being kind of intimidating.

    Then I realised it was just his style - then I did my first MBTI test at work and got him to do one. Then it all made sense. The results had us discuss many aspects we admired and were irritated by in each other (we had to offer up 2 at a time - at least one good one at each turn!) His ENTJ and my INTJ made a good partnership. From my POV - I had the plans, he had the drive. I just had to convince him of the plan, let him tweek it (so he got a sense of ownership) and then he'd start out on them (with me as his trusty assistant). From his POV he'd cook up a plan and get me to de-bug it then he'd have to convince me to become his trusty assistant....

    He also knew that sometimes his manner did come across as intimidating and that it did work against him probably more often than it worked for him. It tended to be his only way when I first knew him.

    I helped him work out more subtle ways of body language and choice of words. Consciously moderating his approach made him much more effective in winning support rather than having people thinking it is demanded. His boss said he these changes made him much more "deadly efficient".

    Me, I'm a mouse who has had to learn to assert myself - and he taught me lots.

    That has been the real benefit of MBTI for me - working out how to do things differently from the "type" but in a way that sits naturally within the type....

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    So if you imagine what you'd need to see if you were in love with that person, then you have an idea what kind of thing they want to see from you, and what you're not doing to show them that you like them, are happy with them and appreciate them.
    This is actually very good advice.

    I say this because being in love tends to be the ENTJ's Achilles heel - it's the one time when they become insecure, wobbly jellies like the rest of us mortals, and start to really give a shit what someone thinks of them, and to need constant reassurance, smiles, positive body language etc.


    Seriously... Sometimes I wonder if people can't feel some kind of vibe we ENTJ's try to control and hide. My real personality is directive and bossy. I control myself not to appear this way or else I would have serious problems with others and wouldn't get anywhere. Still, people sense this.

    But if I was 100% myself, I think most people would become traumatized, faint, develop spots, become hysterical, develop a personality disorder and commit hara-kiri.

    I felt like I've been socialized to feel ashamed of my directive tendencies. Everything teaches you to be submissive. School does. Groups do. People try to control your behavior. If you want to lead, you can only do it in a limited frame where you have to respect all these social norms and rules. You have to endure authority at work before you get to lead too. If people sense you want to lead too much, you're a target for trouble by the leader. So, the best coping mechanism I've found is to appear introverted and indecisive... and to patiently wait the moment to step in. It works pretty well!

    Isn't the MBTI about finding who you are and doing what you really enjoy? OK! Thanks Mr. Consultant, where do I sign up to have the right to boss everyone around and tell them to get screwed if they don't obey me? Didn't your test tell me I was the "Leader". So... Napoleon, Bill Gates, Thatcher... Yes I see. Right! Just don't tell others, heh?

  10. #20
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    I respect how commanding and decisive ENTJs are. These are valuable personality traits. I have difficulty understanding why some people are so intimidated by a person with presence.
    Dost thou love Life? Then do not squander Time; for that's the Stuff Life is made of.

    -- Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, June 1746 --

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