[ENTP] You crazy ENTPs!

[stellar renegade]

You get it I wont labour... dont' take offense at the other thread... it's just really common for non NTs to think NTs are mentally ill when there is nothing wrong with them at all. So don't take offense...

I don't think NTs are mentally ill. I consider him to be the smartest guy I know. I thought he seemed emotionally unstable, that's completely different from mentally ill and I now think I was very likely wrong.

Yes - NT's are often very direct in saying whats in their heads... they dont get you are recieving it in an emotional way..... You will know when an NT is angry

Yeah, he often says you'll know when he's angry. I don't know how many times I've heard him say that and also talk about how much he values blunt honesty. He also seems to be surprised (not that he displays the emotion of surprise) sometimes at my emotional reactions to something he says.

Yes of course you are. its the only person you can change after all (and to be honest it's you that are stating you have a problem not him) . IF he is telling you all the time to fix your life - then you may have a degree of justification at point out his flaws... but right now you are attacking him with your point of view... and it is an attack.

It's harder to work on my ability to be offended than it is to just let him know that the way he's coming across is offensive. And if a person doesn't want to work on that I don't see what the point in trying to maintain healthy interaction is.

He does do what you said, or at least he used to more before. If someone attacks me, I attack back. At least eventually. Usually I just try to comply at first until it builds up.

You wantting to work on yourself is your own choice, his desire not to work on himself is his choice..... and trust me he works on himself infinately more than you do, but not in a way you value or perhaps see - ENTPs are all about self growth...

You are not his judge or boss or parent, it's not up to you to tell him he needs to work on himself... Support him if he asks for help or sounds like he needs a friend but don't tell him he needs to change who he is. it would bug the hell out of you if people pointed out your weak points and told you to change...

What I'm saying is, it's ok for him to be the judge or boss or parent and point out my weak points, but not ok for me to do it to him? That's what I'm saying is going on here. He does it to me way more often than I ever do to him. I usually never openly confront him.

The only way I'd like for him to work on himself is in his approach to others including me. I don't dictate to others, that's not even the SP way.

He doesn't have the teaching skills to be able to reframe his thinking into a style you cna get.

You might want to suggest to him to draw you a diagram or other style that you wold get - different people have different learning styles.

He may not have the communication skills to change how he communicates his idea to you - so he might not be abel to convert his idea to a picture or to less abstract language.
In order for his ideas to be valued he will need to work on that as an issue for him... there are book on how to communicate your ideas... but that is his issue.

Yeah, he doesn't want to invest the energy to do so. He usually just gets frustrated when I don't get it because he feels like I'm just not paying attention or listening closely enough. He'll say something like, "I don't know how I can put it any other way." I think I'm possibly even less abstract than others because he says that other people understand what he's saying better than I do.

You may choose to practice understanding abstract concepts a very SP problem. SP's use concrete language and are less impaginative.. NT's think and use abstract language... You can change yourself but improving your abstract thinking through practice of looking communication you dont' normally get easily.

IT's hard for you because your way of learning is different so it all feels a bit messed up when you hear it... suggest he explains it in a way you can get... he might not be able to do that, but at least you understand he is not just repeating himself because either of you are stupid - you just have different language skills, he just lacks breath of communication and you lack the ability to understand abstract concepts...

"looking communication"? What did you mean to say there?

In order for me to understand it, I'd have to be as mentally quick as him at just grabbing it all at once. I don't know how I can start doing that, it'd be a change in consciousness and probably personality type.

I guess I'll just have to start asking for examples.

Most peoples idea of a good time is to be criticised in a public space... always a pleasure... Id' respond badly too.. He is likely to be defensive

You mean it's a pleasure to do it? haha, even though YOU'D respond badly? Jeesh.

He loves trolling, it's a fun pastime of his.

hope this helps

somewhat, this last round

 

[simulatedworld]

I've actually pointed that out before about ENTPs, saying I was one of the few actually willing to be honest about it, and I just got accused of being ESFP because, wow go figure, most ENTPs weren't willing to be honest about it.

 

[stellar renegade]

I was making a point... if he fixed the things that bother you he stops being an entp....ok not nessesarily SJ.

No, not getting upset at the drop of a hat wouldn't make you another temperament or any less of an ENTP. At least I don't think it would.

Example - he needs to learn new ways to explain thing, he just repeats his idea...

A solution - you develope alternative learning styles to fit his communication....

That one is not his problem... you are an S and use concrete language he is an N and uses abstract... he is not wrong you are not right.... You are both different from each other.... But it's you who want him to change rather than being more flexble yourself.....

there are always multiple ways of looking at a problem, one empowers you to do something the other leaves you powerless and depndant on someone doing things for you

Are you serious? You're asking me to stop trying to get him to be a different temperament, yet you're doing that very thing to me by suggesting that I should change and insulting me by saying that I'm powerless and dependent on others because I'm an S? What BS. It sounds like you have a huge bias, no wonder you saw everything I said in a negative light.

Instead of suggesting we compromise like in any healthy relationship you're suggesting I'm the one who needs to change. He shouldn't be flexible, I should. I get it now.

Ridiculous and I'm not gonna be taken by it.

Steller - you seem to not see that you are pointing your finger at this guys NT'ness and finding fault... thats the basic premis of his personality - it's not a problem that requires a solution.... He is different to you that is all. My adive is to work on your tollerance levels unless there is a big problem you need to resolve

I AM NOT TRYING TO GET HIM TO STOP BEING AN NT!!!!!!!1

GAH

 

[stellar renegade]

I've actually pointed that out before about ENTPs, saying I was one of the few actually willing to be honest about it, and I just got accused of being ESFP because, wow go figure, most ENTPs weren't willing to be honest about it.

hah, wow. Thanks for your honesty.

And what specifically are you talking about? Being sensitive?

 

[tinkerbell]

I don't think NTs are mentally ill. I consider him to be the smartest guy I know. I thought he seemed emotionally unstable, that's completely different from mentally ill and I now think I was very likely wrong

You suggested he had NPD - which is a mental illness,.....and no it's not funny in any way....

He also seems to be surprised (not that he displays the emotion of surprise) sometimes at my emotional reactions to something he says.?

Thats probably because he doesn't understand he is debating without emotions and you are taking umberance.... He doens't know why.... He was just saying the XY is implusable...

This is an area you are almost always going to haved to cut him some slack over, because I doubt he is going to ge pink and fluffy over night.

It's harder to work on my ability to be offended than it is to just let him know that the way he's coming across is offensive. And if a person doesn't want to work on that I don't see what the point in trying to maintain healthy interaction is.?

Thats my point, you beleive it's easier for him to change than it is for you to change... the basic premis for your thinking is wrong.

Focus on being more tollerant and understaning of him... if you constantly tell him he is not doing what you expect he will react badly - same as you would to him.

What I'm saying is, it's ok for him to be the judge or boss or parent and point out my weak points, but not ok for me to do it to him? That's what I'm saying is going on here. He does it to me way more often than I ever do to him. I usually never openly confront him.
?

Now you didn't say he was doing this... simply tell him what I'm telling you. He needs to work at not fixing you and check himself out.... Don't do his diagnosis of what is wrong for him, and don't let him do it too you... but you don't need to be nasty about it... calm and rationally put.

The only way I'd like for him to work on himself is in his approach to others including me. I don't dictate to others, that's not even the SP way.
?

Again you are suggesting he change for you.... PLEASE TELL EE YOU DON'T DO THIS SHIT TO YOUR GIRLFREINDS....

Frankly I don't love you enough to even contemplate changing for you....

Yeah, he doesn't want to invest the energy to do so. He usually just gets frustrated when I don't get it because he feels like I'm just not paying attention or listening closely enough.
?

I wouldn't either if I was on the receiving end of what you have described, you can hardly blame him for that.

He'll say something like, "I don't know how I can put it any other way." I think I'm possibly even less abstract than others because he says that other people understand what he's saying better than I do.
?

He doesn't know how to communicate in non abstract fashion, sometimes his ideas will not transfer back into concrete langauge, you need to deal with the gap between your coms style and his... it may never be bridged...

You can look at practicing understanidng the abstract thought as easily as he can practice communicatng in Concrete...

An analogy... A frenchman walks into a pub and is ecosted by an Englishman, The englishman asks the time... the Frnechman says he doens't speak English...

> who is to blame?

"looking communication"? What did you mean to say there?

Visulat literacy - diagrames, drawings etc...

In order for me to understand it, I'd have to be as mentally quick as him at just grabbing it all at once.

No you don't you need to learn abstract communications skills which are as easy for you to learn as it is for him to learn to speak concrete... answer the Frnechman/Englishman scecnario above...

IT's not about your mental ability it's about aptitued to understand ideasl


>I guess I'll just have to start asking for examples.

would probably be helpful rather than screaming "you keep taking french to me"... you own half the problem

 

[Qre:us]

You wantting to work on yourself is your own choice, his desire not to work on himself is his choice..... and trust me he works on himself infinately more than you do, but not in a way you value or perhaps see - ENTPs are all about self growth...

This is awfully presumptuous and condescending in its arrogant perception. You are basically telling a person that THEY should worry about themselves and their growth, and not THEIR friends, because one can only know to the extent of their own self [agreed], HOWEVER, in the same breath, giving your assumptions about how YOU think the person (stellar) is COMPARED to their friend. That is, to 'trust you' that you know that a virtual stranger works infinitely less on himself than his friend (who you are hearing about from said person). How do you deduce such things?

ENTPs, as a theoretical archetype may be about self-growth, but, at the individual level, if they are unhealthy, or have had life courses filled with conflict, this is not a predictable given.

Commentaries on a particular person, who happen to be ENTP, are not an attack on you individually. There is no need to defend a virtual stranger's friend because of a type the stranger perscribed to him, which happens to be your own. All you can do is talk of an ENTP's thought-process in general and accept that a fucked-up ENTP can indeed exist, at a case level.

WOW!

And I thought I was good at turning the tables... man, that was genius.

Yeah, I see how that could be hurtful now. I feel really dumb for not putting myself in his shoes. Is that an S thing to do? I was going to say, "but I didn't do anything irrational" but when I thought about if I were in his situation, it suddenly clicked. He was fine with the hypothesis but not when we threw it in his face. Yikes, I suck...

Also, that last bit there about having problems communicating his whole life is really insightful. Have you had the same issue? Good grief, poor guy. I'm really starting to understand where he's coming from now...

Thanks. It says a lot that you are so open to wanting to find not just what his issues might be, but how you play into the scenario as well. It shows your value of the friendship, and for that, he (of any type) should be happy to have you as a friend.

One way to bridge the communication gap, which I've done with my friends on the S/N divide is that they like to know the practicality of theories, the practical application in concrete forms. And, as I love to conceptualize, and the more angles I see a theory, the more I understand/learn it, I love being able to wrack my brain trying to find analogies that explain it at the practical level. There's always one, as a theory is something that gains momentum because of some occurance in the practical, concrete world. So, there's always an association/a thread. If you can show initial interest in what he theorizes about, and ask clear questions that targets specifics of his points, that asks him to make it applicable to the concrete world ["that's pretty cool, I'm trying to follow you, can you expand on X? give examples of how this applies?"], your enthusiam will give him the confidence in his theories [and show him you truly want to know], which may make him work harder at trying to bridge that gap and bringing his thoughts around to a common ground/language.

Good luck!

In the end, most times, as humans (beyond type), we just wanna know that there's a presence there at the other end of the line. That's sometimes all the basic comfort one needs. A validation of one's existence, a witness to one's life (and thoughts).

Edit [to add]: Just saw Enki's response -

some answers in here are pretty passive aggressive.

Just saying. You might want to fix that, us NTs are supposed not to like bias.

Word!

 

[tinkerbell]

This is awfully presumptuous and condescending in its arrogant perception. You are basically telling a person that THEY should worry about themselves and their growth, and not THEIR friends, because one can only know to the extent of their own self [agreed], HOWEVER, in the same breath, giving your assumptions about how YOU think the person (stellar) is COMPARED to their friend. That is, to 'trust you' that you know that a virtual stranger works infinitely less on himself than his friend (who you are hearing about from said person). How do you deduce such things?

The guy has come in and listed out several perfectly normal thing that an ENTP and then said he has a problem because of these perfectly normal things, to the point he suggested to the ENTP that he was mentally ill.

He wants the ENTP to change for his convienience...

That is why he is having a negative responce from the ENTP....

I am saying he need to look at what he himself is doing to cause the problem, and fix that which suprisingly enough might have the nock on effect of helping the situation.

The ENTP will dig his heels in.

And no i don't beleive telling your freinds they are insane because they are not emotional and are basically manefesting as an NT is wrong, I don't mind if you dissagree with that...

 

[Qre:us]

The guy has come in and listed out several perfectly normal thing that an ENTP and then said he has a problem because of these perfectly normal things, to the point he suggested to the ENTP that he was mentally ill.

He wants the ENTP to change for his convienience...

That is why he is having a negative responce from the ENTP....

I am saying he need to look at what he himself is doing to cause the problem, and fix that which suprisingly enough might have the nock on effect of helping the situation.

The ENTP will dig his heels in.

Whoosh! Over your head. My point was you are not only wrong but hypocritical to jump on a person's ass because they are assuming TOO much about a person (friend has mental illness), when you just did the same thing. By telling that person that YOU KNOW, that HIS FRIEND works INFINITELY MORE [this is a comparative term, btw] on HIMSELF than Stellar does. How you know this - that is the issue I brought up...as in your words, all stellar needs to do is 'trust you'...a complete stranger to the situation.

My commentary to YOU was nothing to do with me agreeing how stellar looked at his friend, as I already told him about his assumptions. It was about the hypocricy in what you told stellar to NOT do, while doing the same kind of thing YOURSELF.

And no i don't beleive telling your freinds they are insane because they are not emotional and are basically manefesting as an NT is wrong, I don't mind if you dissagree with that...

Yeah, nice try, but, no. You missed my whole point as this was not what I 'agreed' with, see my initial response to stellar:

I.e., basically talk about a close friend with each other on the status of their "mental illness", with neither of you being professionals in the subject, and then approaching him about it, and being suprised by his reaction. Is that rational on YOUR part? Can you see why he had insecurity and confusion over this action of yours?

Try another ?

 

[tinkerbell]

Whoosh! Over your head. My point was you are not only wrong but hypocritical to jump on a person's ass because they are assuming TOO much about a person (friend has mental illness), when you just did the same thing. By telling that person that YOU KNOW, that HIS FRIEND works INFINITELY MORE [this is a comparative term, btw] on HIMSELF than Stellar does. How you know this - that is the issue I brought up...as in your words, all stellar needs to do is 'trust you'...a complete stranger to the situation.

Woooosh - completely over my head because I didn't say that.. I've never said his friend was working on himself or that he was doing it ore, his friend probably isn't... but I can tell that Stellar is attcking his friend - because he is saying he is and then getting bewildered as to why his freind is reacting badly and sniping

Maybe that was in your head because it was in your last post... not mine

 

[Qre:us]

Woooosh - completely over my head because I didn't say that.. I've never said his friend was working on himself or that he was doing it ore, his friend probably isn't... but I can tell that Stellar is attcking his friend - because he is saying he is and then getting bewildered as to why his freind is reacting badly and sniping

Maybe that was in your head because it was in your last post... not mine

You didn't?

Doth my eyes deceive me? Is this another fairy magic?

You wantting to work on yourself is your own choice, his desire not to work on himself is his choice..... and trust me he works on himself infinately more than you do, but not in a way you value or perhaps see - ENTPs are all about self growth...

 

[substitute]

yeah I'll second Qre:us and sim, what they say rings true for me, as does your friend's thing about insecurity, etc.

the idea that ENTP's don't struggle with their extraversion is ludicrous in light of the number of threads on this board devoted to ENTP's who've taken a long time to realise that they were not INTP's, because as children/teens and even young adults, they've been very insecure and socially anxious, and struggled to socialise successfully despite feeling driven to do so.

I know an ESTP and to begin with we didn't get along very well. I thought he was a dumb meat head and he thought I was an airy fairy wuss, and a smart alec, and that I thought I was better than him - well, I guess in all honesty the last one was true in a way in that I thought I was smarter than him, though I never thought being smarter makes you a better person. I used to find him quite frightening because he seemed to me like a loose canon - so willing to become confrontational and (apparently) aggressive in order to "win" a discussion (i.e. intimidate everyone into not voicing their dissent).

HOWEVER, time passed and we were thrown together, had to work together not by our own choice, and after some uneasy times we started to get to know each other. I realized that his aggression wasn't actually genuine aggression - he was just testing if I believed in what I said enough to stand by it, and I learned that all I had to do was calmly stand my ground and he'd respect that and usually back down. But also that it worked the same way in reverse - if I thought something he said was screwy, I just had to come right out and say it without flinching, and if he felt sure he was right he'd usually stand by it calmly and then I had to back down. I learned that he very rarely actually stands by things when challenged UNLESS he's completely certain he's right, so if he's not backing down, I probably should unless I'm equally sure he's wrong, which seldom happens.

He learned that I'm not a smart alec - I'm just trying to treat everyone as equals, so if I'm using "long words" then it's not because I want to show off or make people feel inferior, as he thought at first, it's just the opposite in fact - to not use long words (which are my natural vocab) would feel to me like I was condescending to the other person and saying they were too stupid to understand if I talk my usual way, so I have to dumb down for them. And if I point out inconsistencies and stuff, it's because I think their idea/plan/whatever is actually pretty good, and can work, as long as these minor details are given due attention.

I learned that he's a lot smarter than I thought, he just applies his intelligence in other ways. But all in all I think the biggest revelation to me was about the intimidation/aggression thing. That was the biggest stumbling block for me that made it hard for me to respect him or really see him as someone I could feasibly have a real conversation with - I felt like there was no point, because as soon as I hit on something he didn't understand or didn't like, he'd just start getting all confrontational, and I don't have the inclination or energy to battle through that, so what's the point?

But once I learned that it wasn't actually true aggression and that he didn't actually intend to fight over those things, that he was just pushing me as it were, to see if I'd fall, I realized it was his way of testing whether I was worth listening to, that made a world of difference. It changed the way I perceived him and made me totally lose that fear and unease that I felt around him that came from what I believed was a constant threat/possibility of violence. That made me feel able to open up and just be natural around him. And that I think made him feel more able to do the same with me.

There, I dunno how representative that is of general ENTP/ESTP relations, but it's my experience, so maybe something there will ring a bell.

 

[tinkerbell]

You didn't?

Doth my eyes deceive me? Is this another fairy magic?

Fair enough, that was said yesterday, but still the point remains true, the ENTP like work on himself in ways the SP doesn't understand or value... your point being?

The bigger issue is Steller comes in says that his ENTP friend is crazy and has NPD, when you get under the skin Stellar is expecting the ENTP to change for his benefit... rather than trying to adapt himself... which is the point....


He can change himself easier than he can influence his firiend...

Of course if he had better influencing skills he may not need to change himself so much...

 

[Qre:us]

Fair enough, that was said yesterday, but still the point remains true, the ENTP like work on himself in ways the SP doesn't understand or value... your point being?

You used the word "MORE", which, as I already pointed out is a COMPARATIVE term [redundancy seems to be the word of the day with you, I've never seen an ENTP not get such an obvious point and have to point it out so many times, in so many ways].

My previous response to you:

By telling that person that YOU KNOW, that HIS FRIEND works INFINITELY MORE [this is a comparative term, btw] on HIMSELF than Stellar does.

There's a DIFFERENCE between 'works on self in ways the SP doesn't understand' aka, works in DIFFERENT ways (NT versus SP), and, the word MORE (inferring less than the other party, NT>SP).

But, I guess since you used it yesterday, it doesn't count (not even gonna attempt the 'logic' of this one, to induce more head-hurting). Whatever.

 

[tinkerbell]

You used the word "MORE", which, as I already pointed out is a COMPARATIVE term [redundancy seems to be the word of the day with you, I've never seen an ENTP not get such an obvious point and have to point it out so many times, in so many ways].

There's a DIFFERENCE between 'works on self in ways the SP doesn't understand' aka, works in DIFFERENT ways (NT versus SP), and, the word MORE (inferring less to the other party, NT>SP).

But, I guess since you used it yesterday, it doesn't count. Whatever.

I don't mind - ENPTs work on aquiring skills, it's one of the main premis....

Again my point always comes back to the same thing... this guy is expecting someone to change for him... whilest at the same time showing a great deal of reluctuance to even consider that he needs to change in order to make the move from his own side of the fence...

It's SO much easier to tell a person that they are insane, and not good at explaining their thoughts thans admitting you know nothing much about metal illness and are not making much effort to develop they own comprehension skills.....

YAWN

 

[Katsuni]

He learned that I'm not a smart alec - I'm just trying to treat everyone as equals, so if I'm using "long words" then it's not because I want to show off or make people feel inferior, as he thought at first, it's just the opposite in fact - to not use long words (which are my natural vocab) would feel to me like I was condescending to the other person and saying they were too stupid to understand if I talk my usual way, so I have to dumb down for them.

Oh thanks... I've actually always viewed it that way myself. Because it's usually true >.>;; The smart alec part.

But that explaination makes ALOT of sense, and I'm sure there's the odd person who does think that way =3

Personally, I try to explain myself in standard terms as often as possible; I have a strong complex vocabulary, but rarely make use of it as it just makes it harder to get my point across in most cases. Spend all my time explaining whot the words mean or waiting for people to grab a dictionary >.>

In any case, I'll try to evaluate that a bit better from now on. Mosta re probably still being asses about it, and I don't hesitate to call them out when they're misusing a word, because I usually do understand the language they're using >.>

But anyways!



As for the rest of this thread, tinkerbell's really going at it a bit harshly, with much personal affront taken. To be blunt, OP shouldn't be taking it at hostility towards themselves though, it sounds alot more like the whole "every 5 seconds someone calls an NT insane because they think differently" thing is pissing her off as a whole and yeu just are getting the brunt of everyone else's mistakes. Admittedly yeu were kind of... yeah... not tactful at all. And didn't recognize such either. I'm no better in that regard often myself, though usually displayed in other venues. But regardless, tinker's gone kind of a bit 'out for blood' type dealie, so I'd not take her too seriously in terms of attacks at the moment. Much of whot she's stating is fairly relevant, though some of it's pretty obviously not accurate at all and more projections onto yeu from everyone else who's screwed up similarly as of late.

And quite possibly some blame from people she grew up with. I bet it's a repressed childhood thing. *Blows bubbles from pipe to look really smart* Except I actually kind of mean it, the whole NT female thing, growing up is often a long list of people thinking yeu're broken and trying to 'fix' yeu. The ENTP's especially don't have it any better either. So yeah... think yeu're getting more than just a little hostility that isn't really directed at yeu, and yeu just happen to be the current target available.

Other than that, she does have a few points. Even if it requires hip waders to get through the rest of the... ahem.

 

[stellar renegade]

The guy has come in and listed out several perfectly normal thing that an ENTP and then said he has a problem because of these perfectly normal things, to the point he suggested to the ENTP that he was mentally ill.

Actually I'm more perturbed by the fact that you're completely misinterpreting and misrepresenting what's going on. Where I didn't supply information you filled in the blanks and used those assumptions to completely misinterpret the information I did give.

I NEVER said that I thought he was "mentally ill" because of the attributes of being an NT that I listed in this thread. NEVER. And you jumped the gun and said that I did. I already clarified but you keep insisting that's what I meant.

I said that I had thought he probably had emotional unstability. And not because his language is abstract but because he's sometimes too quick to take offense at something, get frustrated and eventually angry, all starting with something that seems small.

He wants the ENTP to change for his convienience...

My convenience? Really? When someone seems constantly irritated at something about you, it's merely an inconvenience? (I'm not saying he is, but sometimes he appears to be.)

That is why he is having a negative responce from the ENTP....

No, I have a negative response because he thinks I'm not listening, or because of some of my careless habits, for instance.

I am saying he need to look at what he himself is doing to cause the problem, and fix that which suprisingly enough might have the nock on effect of helping the situation.

The ENTP will dig his heels in.

So you're saying "the ENTP" will be stubborn therefore I'm the only one who really needs to work on himself?

And no i don't beleive telling your freinds they are insane because they are not emotional and are basically manefesting as an NT is wrong, I don't mind if you dissagree with that...

"not emotional"? No I was saying he was getting irritated too easily, how is that being non-emotional? I don't think manifesting as the true essence of your temperament is wrong at all, I enjoy the various temperaments.

 

[tinkerbell]

As for the rest of this thread, tinkerbell's really going at it a bit harshly, with much personal affront taken. To be blunt, OP shouldn't be taking it at hostility towards themselves though, it sounds alot more like the whole "every 5 seconds someone calls an NT insane because they think differently" thing is pissing her off as a whole and yeu just are getting the brunt of everyone else's mistakes. Admittedly yeu were kind of... yeah... not tactful at all. And didn't recognize such either. I'm no better in that regard often myself, though usually displayed in other venues. But regardless, tinker's gone kind of a bit 'out for blood' type dealie, so I'd not take her too seriously in terms of attacks at the moment. Much of whot she's stating is fairly relevant, though some of it's pretty obviously not accurate at all and more projections onto yeu from everyone else who's screwed up similarly as of late.
.

I'm laying it on a bit thick but mainly cutting through the denial that the OP needs to make more of an effort to move half way (which seems to be a total allient concept from his responces) towards fixing his contribution to the problems. I am laying it on thick because it seems pretty cyclical - "the friend needs to change not me".

Most of what I have said is not emotional - simply rational argument - over coloured with analogies for example ... but I did warn the OP that I have less emotion in post than he may take from them which he got yesterday....

And quite possibly some blame from people she grew up with. I bet it's a repressed childhood thing. *Blows bubbles from pipe to look really smart* Except I actually kind of mean it, the whole NT female thing, growing up is often a long list of people thinking yeu're broken and trying to 'fix' yeu. The ENTP's especially don't have it any better either. So yeah... think yeu're getting more than just a little hostility that isn't really directed at yeu, and yeu just happen to be the current target available.

Other than that, she does have a few points. Even if it requires hip waders to get through the rest of the... ahem.

Nope I didn't have a huge issue when I grew up. I am from an NT dominant environment.... so less than most girls got... by miles.

But there has been several thread here that instead of realising NTs think, feel and deal with things different - they were automatically the root of the problem and needed to change.. despite the posters very filtred view of the issue.

 

[tinkerbell]

Also... it was suggested by an INTJ friend that he may have borderline personality disorder. We read over the description and it sounded exactly like him, but when I used that as a defense in an argument, he got really upset, even eventually to the point of crying because, he said, he wanted to feel like his emotions were real and not just some chemical that had gone wrong in the brain.

This is your suggestion he is mentally ill.....

Unsurpsingly your firend got upset by that.... his so called friends think he is insane....

 

[tinkerbell]

yeah, he usually doesn't like to deliberate to help me understand, and he hates being repetitive (although he'll repeat the same statement the same exact way if I don't operate in response or accord to it).
(

He doesn't have the teaching skills to teach you - you don't have the comprehension skill to understand him....

Either you can choose to develop comprehension skills...

Or you can ask him to develop better teaching skills...


the first one is easier for you to influence but he may never get there or want to learn to teach.... If you want to understand what he is talking about - the onus of desire lies in your shoes...


As for him not wanting to help you understand...deliberately - he probably see that as an insult to you. ENTPs get selfesteem from understanding things under thier own steem... if you intrfere and help him in learning he would see that as possibly humiliating....

 

[stellar renegade]

Thanks. It says a lot that you are so open to wanting to find not just what his issues might be, but how you play into the scenario as well. It shows your value of the friendship, and for that, he (of any type) should be happy to have you as a friend.

One way to bridge the communication gap, which I've done with my friends on the S/N divide is that they like to know the practicality of theories, the practical application in concrete forms. And, as I love to conceptualize, and the more angles I see a theory, the more I understand/learn it, I love being able to wrack my brain trying to find analogies that explain it at the practical level. There's always one, as a theory is something that gains momentum because of some occurance in the practical, concrete world. So, there's always an association/a thread. If you can show initial interest in what he theorizes about, and ask clear questions that targets specifics of his points, that asks him to make it applicable to the concrete world ["that's pretty cool, I'm trying to follow you, can you expand on X? give examples of how this applies?"], your enthusiam will give him the confidence in his theories [and show him you truly want to know], which may make him work harder at trying to bridge that gap and bringing his thoughts around to a common ground/language.

Good luck!

In the end, most times, as humans (beyond type), we just wanna know that there's a presence there at the other end of the line. That's sometimes all the basic comfort one needs. A validation of one's existence, a witness to one's life (and thoughts).

That's so true. Of course he needs me to listen to and understand him as well. My mom's more the type (ESFJ) who just needs someone to rattle off to even if they're not listening to all the details.

His theories are practical ones (ENTPs strike me as fairly practical) and he doesn't even use abstract language a whole lot. Where the divide is, is when he uses generalizations about things and when he tries to explain a concept that might occur in everyday life but involves alot of different factors coming together.

So, I guess in the former I'd have to ask him to give an example and in the latter to just tell him to break it down? I don't know, on that last one he seems to get irritated when I don't get it because it seems real simple to him.

Thanks for the well wishes.

yeah I'll second Qre:us and sim, what they say rings true for me, as does your friend's thing about insecurity, etc.

the idea that ENTP's don't struggle with their extraversion is ludicrous in light of the number of threads on this board devoted to ENTP's who've taken a long time to realise that they were not INTP's, because as children/teens and even young adults, they've been very insecure and socially anxious, and struggled to socialise successfully despite feeling driven to do so.

I know an ESTP and to begin with we didn't get along very well. I thought he was a dumb meat head and he thought I was an airy fairy wuss, and a smart alec, and that I thought I was better than him - well, I guess in all honesty the last one was true in a way in that I thought I was smarter than him, though I never thought being smarter makes you a better person. I used to find him quite frightening because he seemed to me like a loose canon - so willing to become confrontational and (apparently) aggressive in order to "win" a discussion (i.e. intimidate everyone into not voicing their dissent).

HOWEVER, time passed and we were thrown together, had to work together not by our own choice, and after some uneasy times we started to get to know each other. I realized that his aggression wasn't actually genuine aggression - he was just testing if I believed in what I said enough to stand by it, and I learned that all I had to do was calmly stand my ground and he'd respect that and usually back down. But also that it worked the same way in reverse - if I thought something he said was screwy, I just had to come right out and say it without flinching, and if he felt sure he was right he'd usually stand by it calmly and then I had to back down. I learned that he very rarely actually stands by things when challenged UNLESS he's completely certain he's right, so if he's not backing down, I probably should unless I'm equally sure he's wrong, which seldom happens.

He learned that I'm not a smart alec - I'm just trying to treat everyone as equals, so if I'm using "long words" then it's not because I want to show off or make people feel inferior, as he thought at first, it's just the opposite in fact - to not use long words (which are my natural vocab) would feel to me like I was condescending to the other person and saying they were too stupid to understand if I talk my usual way, so I have to dumb down for them. And if I point out inconsistencies and stuff, it's because I think their idea/plan/whatever is actually pretty good, and can work, as long as these minor details are given due attention.

I learned that he's a lot smarter than I thought, he just applies his intelligence in other ways. But all in all I think the biggest revelation to me was about the intimidation/aggression thing. That was the biggest stumbling block for me that made it hard for me to respect him or really see him as someone I could feasibly have a real conversation with - I felt like there was no point, because as soon as I hit on something he didn't understand or didn't like, he'd just start getting all confrontational, and I don't have the inclination or energy to battle through that, so what's the point?

But once I learned that it wasn't actually true aggression and that he didn't actually intend to fight over those things, that he was just pushing me as it were, to see if I'd fall, I realized it was his way of testing whether I was worth listening to, that made a world of difference. It changed the way I perceived him and made me totally lose that fear and unease that I felt around him that came from what I believed was a constant threat/possibility of violence. That made me feel able to open up and just be natural around him. And that I think made him feel more able to do the same with me.

There, I dunno how representative that is of general ENTP/ESTP relations, but it's my experience, so maybe something there will ring a bell.

Interesting! Well, he's definitely the aggressive one (I can see how the roles can be switched). I figure that, for one, I'm less confrontational because I learned to be gentler early on in life when because of different circumstances I acted in a different type and eventually temperament and two, because he's already asserted his aggression in our relationship. Also, SPs in general are supposed to like being charming and smooth, although I know alot of ESTPs do act aggressive sometimes. I do that more often at other places like work. Usually I just like to put up a charming front.

But other than that I'd say it's about the same. He sees me as a smart person but that's why it frustrates him all the more when I don't get what he's talking about. I used to constantly get the feeling that he thought he was better than me and felt he was very pretentious.