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  1. #81
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Being in jail excludes mental health diagnosis in this country to a large degree, and that should certainly be taken into account.


    But anyway...INFPs are accused of being mentally ill or damaged all of the time, or that "fucked up people" mistype as INFP. There was a thread that even suggested that INFPs and INFJs both come from some sort of emotionally abusive environment.

    So this isn't just about ENTPs, and you certainly shouldn't take it personally.
    Things change they always do...

    As for the unprofessional diagnosis, I just think it's appaulingly offensive, it isn't really about any individual type... it's rude and ignorant irespectively of which type are in the spotlight (INFJ are likely to be quite an extremeist group)...

    So its not personal pre sey (just soap boxing this week)....

    Almost all of the arm chair diagnistitians are just expressing intollerance and lack of understanding the type differences mean they behave differently and that all types have strengths and weaknesses... attempting to change how they approach a type that they find difficult is a better soltion to muck slanging... ENOUGH already.

    Hopefully, if they do change the defiitions, some more people can get treatment, but as I understand it, it's not really treatable...

    I've met a few women over the years - who were probably in this category - one or two self harmers - sad

    PS - if you work in the field say so I'd like to run a thought by you on treatment...

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    Things change they always do...

    As for the unprofessional diagnosis, I just think it's appaulingly offensive, it isn't really about any individual type... it's rude and ignorant irespectively of which type are in the spotlight (INFJ are likely to be quite an extremeist group)...

    So its not personal pre sey (just soap boxing this week)....
    I agree. Not only that, but I'm a soap boxer, too.

    <<< Me lol


    Almost all of the arm chair diagnistitians are just expressing intollerance and lack of understanding the type differences mean they behave differently and that all types have strengths and weaknesses... attempting to change how they approach a type that they find difficult is a better soltion to muck slanging... ENOUGH already.
    Yes.

    Hopefully, if they do change the defiitions, some more people can get treatment, but as I understand it, it's not really treatable...

    I've met a few women over the years - who were probably in this category - one or two self harmers - sad

    PS - if you work in the field say so I'd like to run a thought by you on treatment...
    Nah, I'm just a student. But I'm still interested in your idea.

  3. #83
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    Marmalade...

    You know there as much distress on my part on the banding about of terms and lowering of the research for sufferers of a condition.

    If people beleive the pain in the ass at the ofice has NPD (and is actually perfectly mentally healthy), they will neither respect nor try to understand the vastness of the impact of a real NPD sufferer and their families etc... not sure if that makes sense or not.

    People with Mental Health conditions should have the same respect as anyone with a physical illness. Few people would go into the office and suggest the lass on the desk has cancer... folks would think they are strange... but it's perfectly OK for them to go to the office and say - she's scizophernic.. or bi polar.. etc... and people don't think it's their problem but that the lass has problems.

    Mental Health patients are properly ill, and should be respected as such. Diangosis is not a team sport

    I did warn you I was soap boxing, I knew I was feeling something in my gut about the subject I'd not formulated yet - than just the accusation thing... I'll shut up....

  4. #84
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    Will start a thead tomorrow on treatments, I'm tiered this afternoon/evening...

  5. #85
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    some answers in here are pretty passive aggressive.

    Just saying. You might want to fix that, us NTs are supposed not to like bias.
    Quote Originally Posted by stellar renegade View Post
    No, not getting upset at the drop of a hat wouldn't make you another temperament or any less of an ENTP. At least I don't think it would.

    Are you serious? You're asking me to stop trying to get him to be a different temperament, yet you're doing that very thing to me by suggesting that I should change and insulting me by saying that I'm powerless and dependent on others because I'm an S? What BS. It sounds like you have a huge bias, no wonder you saw everything I said in a negative light.

    Instead of suggesting we compromise like in any healthy relationship you're suggesting I'm the one who needs to change. He shouldn't be flexible, I should. I get it now.
    Ridiculous and I'm not gonna be taken by it.

    I AM NOT TRYING TO GET HIM TO STOP BEING AN NT!!!!!!!1

    GAH
    I recall this. I feel your pain.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    You used the word "MORE", which, as I already pointed out is a COMPARATIVE term [redundancy seems to be the word of the day with you, I've never seen an ENTP not get such an obvious point and have to point it out so many times, in so many ways].
    My previous response to you:
    Quote Originally Posted by stellar renegade View Post
    Actually I'm more perturbed by the fact that you're completely misinterpreting and misrepresenting what's going on. Where I didn't supply information you filled in the blanks and used those assumptions to completely misinterpret the information I did give.I NEVER said that I thought he was "mentally ill" because of the attributes of being an NT that I listed in this thread. NEVER. And you jumped the gun and said that I did. I already clarified but you keep insisting that's what I meant.
    .
    Ne.....Fi.

  6. #86
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stellar renegade View Post
    hah, wow. Thanks for your honesty.

    And what specifically are you talking about? Being sensitive?
    I think sensitive is a misleading word here; that's not quite the right shade of meaning. We're actually kind of oblivious when it comes to people's feelings, so that isn't quite it.

    But he's right that Ne requires external validation for its ideas (whereas Ni typically does not), and he's also right that we take criticism of our ideas very seriously...we are not as apathetic as the image we show everyone.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by stellar renegade View Post
    Also... it was suggested by an INTJ friend that he may have borderline personality disorder. We read over the description and it sounded exactly like him, but when I used that as a defense in an argument, he got really upset, even eventually to the point of crying because, he said, he wanted to feel like his emotions were real and not just some chemical that had gone wrong in the brain.

    I was at a loss, because personally if I had even the slightest hint that there was some chemical gone screwy in my brain I'd be breathing down the neck of whatever doctor could get me the pills. haha.

    I kind of understand that, though, and it seems to go well with the Rational's need for a sense of competence. This theme was repeated again when he said though he was taking some of my St. John's Wort pills that he'd rather not have to rely on them. He actually used the same word competence though I hadn't discussed the concept with him. It was really interesting.

    What do you guys think of that?

    I have to say I really like you guys. You're very interesting peeps to me, and probably my favorite Rationals (the most fun and the funniest! probably even the funniest type!! ) but this is my only issue, if it's something that's inherent to the type.

    Of course I know you're probably not all quite that reactive. He's had a very difficult life, that's a really big part of it as well.

    Aside from my convo with Tinkerbell on bpd, I would just like to add that it's not really appropriate to confront someone about suspected mental illness during an argument. If you really thought there was something seriously wrong with him that should be addressed at a "neutral time" when he's calm and open to your thoughts. Otherwise it's really just an attack.

    Not all people are really open to the idea that there's something 'screwy' in their brain and wanting to get on pills. He isn't you, and many people don't look at emotional disturbance in that light. Some people won't go to a psychiatrist at all.

    At any rate, your amateur psychoanalysis seems a little concendescending, and you picked a really shitty time to make it known. If you're really concerned with his mental health it should be approached in a more sensitive manner (yeah, I know ESTPs don't have that as a strength, nor do INTJs, really...) and you should also take into consideration that you could be wrong, of course. He could just be different from you.

  8. #88
    Senior Member Valuable_Money's Avatar
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    I remember when I went to jail for a night they asked me several questions as part of a standard psych eval. One of them was "Can you control other people with your thoughts?"
    youd think If I could do that I wouldnt of been in jail.
    Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh? wgah'nagl fhtagn

  9. #89
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valuable_Money View Post
    I remember when I went to jail for a night they asked me several questions as part of a standard psych eval. One of them was "Can you control other people with your thoughts?"
    youd think If I could do that I wouldnt of been in jail.
    LOL - thats really funny...

  10. #90
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    This is awfully presumptuous and condescending in its arrogant perception. You are basically telling a person that THEY should worry about themselves and their growth, and not THEIR friends, because one can only know to the extent of their own self [agreed], HOWEVER, in the same breath, giving your assumptions about how YOU think the person (stellar) is COMPARED to their friend. That is, to 'trust you' that you know that a virtual stranger works infinitely less on himself than his friend (who you are hearing about from said person). How do you deduce such things?

    ENTPs, as a theoretical archetype may be about self-growth, but, at the individual level, if they are unhealthy, or have had life courses filled with conflict, this is not a predictable given.

    Commentaries on a particular person, who happen to be ENTP, are not an attack on you individually. There is no need to defend a virtual stranger's friend because of a type the stranger perscribed to him, which happens to be your own. All you can do is talk of an ENTP's thought-process in general and accept that a fucked-up ENTP can indeed exist, at a case level.
    Sorry I was very tiered when I replied to you yesterday (been charting for a large part of the day)...

    I have over egged this and wanted to give clarity because the concept of personal responciblity seemed not be registering... and yes I beleive he needs to spend time thikning of his own issues rather than chastising his friend.... It's not a difficult concept... I beleive the expectation that someone else will change for your benefit is flawed.

    This is in reponce (and I paraphrase) that Setllar seems to be totally suprised that anyone expected him to change.....


    "Quote:
    Originally Posted by stellar renegade

    So I'm supposed to work on my own issues even though he doesn't want to work on his? That seems like a huge unfair double standard to me."

    my responce...Yes of course you are. its the only person you can change after all (and to be honest it's you that are stating you have a problem not him) . IF he is telling you all the time to fix your life - then you may have a degree of justification at point out his flaws... but right now you are attacking him with your point of view... and it is an attack.

    You wantting to work on yourself is your own choice, his desire not to work on himself is his choice..... and trust me he works on himself infinately more than you do, but not in a way you value or perhaps see - ENTPs are all about self growth... "


    The sheer sock that he may need to work on his own issue is what that is aimed at.

    The ENTP reference is by-the-by to be honest it could be any type... I may have badly phrase this, with the word MORE which has caused you offense. It's only trying to illustrate that it's innapropraite to expect someone to change when quite frankly the OP owns a fair bit of the problem himself... (which we've been over several times)... see the phrasing of the text as an exasperation that the OP simply hadn't registered that he should be focusing on his own development rather than expecting someone to change (not about type). Example = ENTP has limited teaching skills, OP has limited comprehension.... The OP can work on his comprehension without having a go at his friend.

    It's the whole "he who is without sin cast the first stone concept".... (and no I'm SO NOT religious) - it's not couples counciling... To be shocked by the thought that he may need to work on himself without the ENTP doing anything is a bit odd. Your freinds don't dictate to you what you need to do/fix in yourself... thats are argument waiting to happen

    And again the ENTP isn't the issue....

    It's a badly phrased analogy because I was getting frustrated with delivering what is to me, a rather simple concept... it's over laboured.

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