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  1. #61
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stellar renegade View Post
    I said that I had thought he probably had emotional unstability. And not because his language is abstract but because he's sometimes too quick to take offense at something, get frustrated and eventually angry, all starting with something that seems small.
    Again HUGELY insulting to your firend...

    You'd not take it well if I assused you of being mentally unstable..

    Hi langauge is abstract because he is an NT.... NFs also use abstract language... S types use concrete (I'm sure it is that way round)

  2. #62
    PEST that STEPs on PETS stellar renegade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    the idea that ENTP's don't struggle with their extraversion is ludicrous in light of the number of threads on this board devoted to ENTP's who've taken a long time to realise that they were not INTP's, because as children/teens and even young adults, they've been very insecure and socially anxious, and struggled to socialise successfully despite feeling driven to do so.
    Interestingly enough, I found this:
    Keirsey's Fieldmarshal Rational is not inherently "extroverted" very much, and the Inventor Rational is even less. For example, General George C. Marshall (a Fieldmarshal) and Nicola Tesla (an Inventor) would not be very good examples of the "typical" Extrovert -- they were not gregarious in the least. Sure, most Fieldmarshals and Inventors can be "gregarious" or "not shy", in fact they can be sometimes overbearing or steamrolling in their opinions. They are usually pretty friendly at parties and open to people to some extent. Although they don't have to be. Moreover, if Fieldmarshal is finding a particular person "boring" (and that can be in a few seconds) he quickly will find any excuse to exit the scene very quickly or if he finds utility in it, he can rake the person over the conceptual coals, so to make sure that person realizes he is not considered worthwhile. So the Fieldmarshal is an "extrovert" with a purpose (they are pragmatic -- their sociability is often contingent). Sometimes that purpose can be very narrow, such that the common notion of "extrovert" is not well suited for the Fieldmarshal. Same is true with the Inventor. The Inventor often appears like an Artisan Promoter, always interested in having an "interesting" time. Only the difference is the Inventor is "looking" for new experiences, new ideas, or some way to promote his ideas, so those who don't help in this endeavor are quickly cast off. That is, the Inventor is an "extrovert" with an interest (outer-directed might be a better term), and that specific interest often being so narrow that the term "extrovert" is misleading. Although in casual acquaintance they appear to be "extroverted."
    From here.
    -stellar renegade
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  3. #63
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Katsuni

    And quite possibly some blame from people she grew up with. I bet it's a repressed childhood thing. *Blows bubbles from pipe to look really smart* Except I actually kind of mean it, the whole NT female thing, growing up is often a long list of people thinking yeu're broken and trying to 'fix' yeu. The ENTP's especially don't have it any better either. So yeah... think yeu're getting more than just a little hostility that isn't really directed at yeu, and yeu just happen to be the current target available.
    ."

    Kat - I've sent the last 3 years working for an ENTJ who insisted one argue the case all the way through.... V dialectal... I'm still arguing with him over science v's fairies...

  4. #64
    PEST that STEPs on PETS stellar renegade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    You suggested he had NPD - which is a mental illness,.....and no it's not funny in any way....
    When did I ever imply it was funny?

    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    Thats probably because he doesn't understand he is debating without emotions and you are taking umberance.... He doens't know why.... He was just saying the XY is implusable...
    You mean "with emotions"?

    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    This is an area you are almost always going to haved to cut him some slack over, because I doubt he is going to ge pink and fluffy over night.
    I wasn't upset that he gets surprised over it. Not everything I've said about him is something I'm upset about.

    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    Thats my point, you beleive it's easier for him to change than it is for you to change... the basic premis for your thinking is wrong.

    Focus on being more tollerant and understaning of him... if you constantly tell him he is not doing what you expect he will react badly - same as you would to him.
    Okay, but not getting stirred up over something is more of an NT trait. Are you telling me to acquiesce because it's easier for me to be more cool-headed and rational (and therefore more NT) about his bluntness?

    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    Now you didn't say he was doing this... simply tell him what I'm telling you. He needs to work at not fixing you and check himself out.... Don't do his diagnosis of what is wrong for him, and don't let him do it too you... but you don't need to be nasty about it... calm and rationally put.
    I doubt that'd illicit a good response, but I'll try to figure out some way to go about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    Again you are suggesting he change for you.... PLEASE TELL EE YOU DON'T DO THIS SHIT TO YOUR GIRLFREINDS....
    Oh God. Are you serious? To just ask someone to be a little more tactful is trying to change who they are? That's so silly.

    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    Frankly I don't love you enough to even contemplate changing for you....
    haha. You'll change your mind I'm sure, babe.

    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    I wouldn't either if I was on the receiving end of what you have described, you can hardly blame him for that.
    So you'd get frustrated at me for not getting something complex you were saying? Great.

    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    He doesn't know how to communicate in non abstract fashion, sometimes his ideas will not transfer back into concrete langauge, you need to deal with the gap between your coms style and his... it may never be bridged...

    You can look at practicing understanidng the abstract thought as easily as he can practice communicatng in Concrete...

    An analogy... A frenchman walks into a pub and is ecosted by an Englishman, The englishman asks the time... the Frnechman says he doens't speak English...

    > who is to blame?
    Neither. But if the Englishman got irritated at the Frenchman and said it should be simple for him to understand English, then I'd say the Englishman would need to be more understanding, wouldn't you?

    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    IT's not about your mental ability it's about aptitued to understand ideasl
    And the difference is...?

    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    would probably be helpful rather than screaming "you keep taking french to me"... you own half the problem
    I don't scream at him. I don't get where you get that I am screaming at him. Is this your incredible power of assumption generating operating again? I never get angry at him for saying something I don't understand. I ask him to explain in a different way and he gets irritated. So if anything, it's the other way around.

    But feel free to misrepresent the situation yet once again.

    I'm almost through with this thread. You are making this a much bigger deal than it is and stringing it out into an argument between us even though my friend and I typically get along for the most part. We rarely get into arguments anymore, and our frustrations might be somewhat frequent but are minor and don't last too long now.
    -stellar renegade
    coo-oo-ooool this madness down,
    stop it right on tiiiiime!


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  5. #65
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    OK -lets park the NPD/mental illness thing, I think you got this yesterday and I think you get it now... it's insulting and hurtful etc... snuff said..

    Quote Originally Posted by stellar renegade View Post
    Okay, but not getting stirred up over something is more of an NT trait. Are you telling me to acquiesce because it's easier for me to be more cool-headed and rational (and therefore more NT) about his bluntness?
    No not that.

    it is easeir for you to change yourself/your approach/your tactics, than it is for you to influence actual change in someone else... especally when that someone comes from a slightly different universe....

    EXAMPLE If he talks to you about something which he is just talking about... and you get all upset and start arguing with him... he gets all bewildered...

    Isn't it easier for you to apprecaite that he isn't communicating with emotions... he hasn't seen it has upset you.

    IF you want to feed back to him.... State that what he was saying was quite hurful and made you feel like XYZ.... did he mean that...... "and give your take on it"- chances are he will be horrified. Main thing is not to make him feel attacked

    do you get that if he doesn't understand that he has said anything that you are taking offense too and you then argue with him.. he would be bewildered about where that has come from.. he may not being picking up your upset ques while he is talking... This is when he is doing it unconsiously... when he is deliberately riding you use the bit I suggested before about explaining that you don't need fixing... etc...

    Quote Originally Posted by stellar renegade View Post
    I doubt that'd illicit a good response, but I'll try to figure out some way to go about it.
    I doubt it too, but unless you are telling him that you don't apprecaite him telling you to change - then it will piss you off... you then geting snippy with him and he then gets offended... Be patient with this - you are changing your style of approach to facilitate a different outcome than usual (AKAN to get him to reduce and stop the incidents that he does this)


    Quote Originally Posted by stellar renegade View Post
    Oh God. Are you serious? To just ask someone to be a little more tactful is trying to change who they are? That's so silly.
    But you are not just asking him to be more tactful, you are critical of his abitites to explain, telling him he is over emotional, etc etc... read the last 5 pages of what you are asking for him... REALLY you've not just been asking him to be more a wee bit more tactful at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by stellar renegade View Post
    haha. You'll change your mind I'm sure, babe.
    so you think

    Quote Originally Posted by stellar renegade View Post
    So you'd get frustrated at me for not getting something complex you were saying? Great.
    What would bug me is not your not getting the concept, but blaming me for it, when you own the comprehension side of the discussion... It was interesting in your last post - was your question about "should I get him to draw me diagrams" - YES - it will help you understand and reduce his frustration I'm sure.... the more ways you can think about lowering the gap and helping you understand what is in his head the less frustrating it will be for him.


    Quote Originally Posted by stellar renegade View Post

    Neither.
    YES I agree they are both to blame/have ownership

    Quote Originally Posted by stellar renegade View Post
    But if the Englishman got irritated at the Frenchman and said it should be simple for him to understand English, then I'd say the Englishman would need to be more understanding, wouldn't you?
    No that is my point - the Englishman needs to calm down and realise its his fault for not speaking French, and make efforts to learn... and the Frenchman needs to make some effort to learn Enlgish... The onus is on the one who is irritated to move more than half way across that gap


    Quote Originally Posted by stellar renegade View Post
    And the difference is...?
    Massive difference.... mental ability/intellect is about your ability to perform intellectually..... be able to solve problems, spacial awareness etc... you could have an IQ150 and still be sufferening form the same issue with your freind.. he is talking abstractly - which isn't about using big words or having a quick brain (ENTPs are quick)


    He can use simple lanuge to explain an idea... an example would be a general moving toy soldiers around a tiny battel field in his office to explain the strategy in a war - this is the communication of an abstract idea - in simple to understand terms....

    Get him to use visuals, get him do physical things like the general - make it real for you - your brain simply can recreate a battle field in your head without simulus - thats the main difference with abstract thinkiers...

    Your screwed if his ideas are massively technical, but asking questions gently about how he would explain that idea to a 8 year old - gives him practice of communication of ideas, and you the opportunity to show and interest...

    Quote Originally Posted by stellar renegade View Post
    I don't scream at him. I don't get where you get that I am screaming at him. Is this your incredible power of assumption generating operating again?
    I never said you screamed at him (it was the frnech guy you were hypotetically screaming at).. but you are telling him he needs to change, rather than taking the onus on yourself..


    Quote Originally Posted by stellar renegade View Post
    But feel free to misrepresent the situation yet once again.
    YAWN you've miss read the post

    PS don't automatically asume because he has a quick brain and uses an abstract communication style that he is more intellegent than you are.... He might be, but not nessesarily. Speed doens't equal rightness.... He explains stuff in the way he thinks - see my next post for a bad communication style... and the one after for a good communication style.... there are lots of ways you can help yourself understand his ideas better... just need to figure out what works for you that he can do

  6. #66
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    An example of communication not designed to explain something... this is taken from the UK tax site and is unliekly to be easy to comprehend

    How the DTC treats US partnerships and LLCs
    Article 1(8) of the DTC provides that

    'An item of income, profit or gain derived through a person that is fiscally transparent under the laws of either Contracting State shall be considered to be derived by a resident of a Contracting State to the extent that the item is treated for the purposes of the taxation law of such Contracting State as the income, profit or gain of a resident.'

    A transparent concern itself is therefore not given the right to found a claim for relief.

    Instead, that right is given individually to those 'qualifying persons' defined by the General Definitions Article 3; and as further qualified by the Limitation on Benefits Article 27, who have derived their beneficial entitlement to income, profit or gain through their participation in the transparent concern. (It will be noted that this is not so very different from the situation that obtained under Article 4(1)(b)(i) of the 'old' 1980 DTC.)

    What this would mean for partners and LLC members
    Strictly speaking, HMRC Residency should accept claims only from those partners and members who themselves fall to be regarded as 'qualifying persons' in their own right.

    In practice, this would mean as many separate claims for one item of UK-source income paid to a transparent concern such as a partnership or LLC as there are beneficial owners to whom it is then being paid on or distributed.

    HMRC Residency recognises that applying the DTC provisions in such a literal way would be unwelcome to its customers and could possibly hamper the business interests of both countries. It would be a retrograde step in customer service terms, and would not be justified on either an assessment of risk to the UK Exchequer or on compliance grounds. HMRC Residency wants to keep a proper balance between the ease with which US residents should be able to claim relief with the administrative procedures and paperwork that must be employed by the UK Revenue to verify and give effect to such a claim.

  7. #67
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    An example of clear communication style

    Recipe
    Serves: 8

    Cooking and preparation
    Preparations time: 10 minutes
    Cooking time: 20 minutes
    Ingredients
    knob of butter, melted
    225g/8oz butter, softened
    225g/8oz caster sugar
    4 large free-range eggs
    225g/8oz self-raising flour, sifted (you may need a bit extra)
    For the filling
    6 tbsp good-quality strawberry jam
    300ml/10 fl oz double cream, lightly whipped
    To serve
    icing sugar, for dusting
    You'll need two 15cm-17.5cm/6in-7in cake tins
    Top
    Method
    1. Preheat the oven to 180C/350F/Gas 4.

    2. Gently heat the knob of butter in a pan and brush two 6in-7in/15cm-17.5cm cake tins with the melted butter. Line the bottom of the two cake tins with a circle of greaseproof paper.

    3. In a large bowl, cream together the butter and sugar until pale and creamy, using an electric whisk or a wooden spoon. Beat well to get lots of air into the mixture (this should take a couple of minutes).

    4. Beat in the eggs one at a time. Add a tablespoon of flour if the mixture curdles.

    5. Fold in the flour using a large metal spoon. Be careful not to over-mix it.

    6. Pour the mixture equally between the two cake tins and level off the top with a spatula. Make a slight dip in the centre with the tip of the spatula if you don't want them to be pointed in the middle.

    7. Place in the oven and bake for about 20 minutes, or until the cakes spring back when pressed gently with a finger and are pale golden in colour.

    8. Remove from the oven and take them out of the tins after about 5-10 minutes. Place them on a wire rack to cool completely (for about half an hour).

    9. Spread the sponge with the jam and the whipped cream, then carefully sandwich together.

    10. Dust with icing sugar and serve.

  8. #68
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    both are aimed at non technical experts, adults with average intellegence.... the second one is aimed to communicate easily to the maximum possible number of people...

    At the end of one - you may have understood a little bit about creating a tax return, the other you will make a victoria sponge...


    Both are abstract concepts right now...

    Neither ought to require massive intellect.... (unforutunately the first one may feel as if it does)

    The second one could just as easily be a proces to conduct a medical proceedure (as an industry they need to communicate clearly in order to prevent accidents)

    It's not about brains, it's about communication

  9. #69
    PEST that STEPs on PETS stellar renegade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    No not that.

    it is easeir for you to change yourself/your approach/your tactics, than it is for you to influence actual change in someone else... especally when that someone comes from a slightly different universe....
    I just don't want to let him steamroll over me is all.

    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    EXAMPLE If he talks to you about something which he is just talking about... and you get all upset and start arguing with him... he gets all bewildered...

    Isn't it easier for you to apprecaite that he isn't communicating with emotions... he hasn't seen it has upset you.
    Well I kinda misstated the case, when I said he was surprised it's more he gets upset that I'm getting more upset than he feels I should be. And it's hard for me to appreciate it because I sense the irritation in his voice.

    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    IF you want to feed back to him.... State that what he was saying was quite hurful and made you feel like XYZ.... did he mean that...... "and give your take on it"- chances are he will be horrified. Main thing is not to make him feel attacked

    do you get that if he doesn't understand that he has said anything that you are taking offense too and you then argue with him.. he would be bewildered about where that has come from.. he may not being picking up your upset ques while he is talking... This is when he is doing it unconsiously... when he is deliberately riding you use the bit I suggested before about explaining that you don't need fixing... etc...
    That makes sense, I'm bad about being thorough and explaining the way something made me feel. That's something I can definitely work on.

    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    I doubt it too, but unless you are telling him that you don't apprecaite him telling you to change - then it will piss you off... you then geting snippy with him and he then gets offended... Be patient with this - you are changing your style of approach to facilitate a different outcome than usual (AKAN to get him to reduce and stop the incidents that he does this)
    Yeah.

    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    But you are not just asking him to be more tactful, you are critical of his abitites to explain, telling him he is over emotional, etc etc... read the last 5 pages of what you are asking for him... REALLY you've not just been asking him to be more a wee bit more tactful at all.
    I'm not critical of his abilities to explain, I just tell him I don't understand what he's saying. From time to time I have told him that he was getting too emotional about something. I'm concerned for him, though. Really all I can do is ask him to change his approach.

    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    What would bug me is not your not getting the concept, but blaming me for it, when you own the comprehension side of the discussion...
    Okay, but I don't blame him for it...

    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    It was interesting in your last post - was your question about "should I get him to draw me diagrams" - YES - it will help you understand and reduce his frustration I'm sure.... the more ways you can think about lowering the gap and helping you understand what is in his head the less frustrating it will be for him.
    Not in the moment, though. I should probably sit him down sometime and explain how literally and visually my mind works.

    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    No that is my point - the Englishman needs to calm down and realise its his fault for not speaking French, and make efforts to learn... and the Frenchman needs to make some effort to learn Enlgish... The onus is on the one who is irritated to move more than half way across that gap
    So it would be him in this case?

    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    Massive difference.... mental ability/intellect is about your ability to perform intellectually..... be able to solve problems, spacial awareness etc... you could have an IQ150 and still be sufferening form the same issue with your freind.. he is talking abstractly - which isn't about using big words or having a quick brain (ENTPs are quick)
    Okay, that's true. But I was just talking about grasping complex concepts.

    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    He can use simple lanuge to explain an idea... an example would be a general moving toy soldiers around a tiny battel field in his office to explain the strategy in a war - this is the communication of an abstract idea - in simple to understand terms....

    Get him to use visuals, get him do physical things like the general - make it real for you - your brain simply can recreate a battle field in your head without simulus - thats the main difference with abstract thinkiers...

    Your screwed if his ideas are massively technical, but asking questions gently about how he would explain that idea to a 8 year old - gives him practice of communication of ideas, and you the opportunity to show and interest...
    I can ask him to show me. I'll see how well that works.
    -stellar renegade
    coo-oo-ooool this madness down,
    stop it right on tiiiiime!


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  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    Ok BPD is almost always women, so your freind is very unlikely to have this.
    That isn't true. Men can have borderline personality disorder. Plenty of men have it.

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