User Tag List

First 45678 Last

Results 51 to 60 of 90

  1. #51
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    4,601

    Default

    yeah I'll second Qre:us and sim, what they say rings true for me, as does your friend's thing about insecurity, etc.

    the idea that ENTP's don't struggle with their extraversion is ludicrous in light of the number of threads on this board devoted to ENTP's who've taken a long time to realise that they were not INTP's, because as children/teens and even young adults, they've been very insecure and socially anxious, and struggled to socialise successfully despite feeling driven to do so.

    I know an ESTP and to begin with we didn't get along very well. I thought he was a dumb meat head and he thought I was an airy fairy wuss, and a smart alec, and that I thought I was better than him - well, I guess in all honesty the last one was true in a way in that I thought I was smarter than him, though I never thought being smarter makes you a better person. I used to find him quite frightening because he seemed to me like a loose canon - so willing to become confrontational and (apparently) aggressive in order to "win" a discussion (i.e. intimidate everyone into not voicing their dissent).

    HOWEVER, time passed and we were thrown together, had to work together not by our own choice, and after some uneasy times we started to get to know each other. I realized that his aggression wasn't actually genuine aggression - he was just testing if I believed in what I said enough to stand by it, and I learned that all I had to do was calmly stand my ground and he'd respect that and usually back down. But also that it worked the same way in reverse - if I thought something he said was screwy, I just had to come right out and say it without flinching, and if he felt sure he was right he'd usually stand by it calmly and then I had to back down. I learned that he very rarely actually stands by things when challenged UNLESS he's completely certain he's right, so if he's not backing down, I probably should unless I'm equally sure he's wrong, which seldom happens.

    He learned that I'm not a smart alec - I'm just trying to treat everyone as equals, so if I'm using "long words" then it's not because I want to show off or make people feel inferior, as he thought at first, it's just the opposite in fact - to not use long words (which are my natural vocab) would feel to me like I was condescending to the other person and saying they were too stupid to understand if I talk my usual way, so I have to dumb down for them. And if I point out inconsistencies and stuff, it's because I think their idea/plan/whatever is actually pretty good, and can work, as long as these minor details are given due attention.

    I learned that he's a lot smarter than I thought, he just applies his intelligence in other ways. But all in all I think the biggest revelation to me was about the intimidation/aggression thing. That was the biggest stumbling block for me that made it hard for me to respect him or really see him as someone I could feasibly have a real conversation with - I felt like there was no point, because as soon as I hit on something he didn't understand or didn't like, he'd just start getting all confrontational, and I don't have the inclination or energy to battle through that, so what's the point?

    But once I learned that it wasn't actually true aggression and that he didn't actually intend to fight over those things, that he was just pushing me as it were, to see if I'd fall, I realized it was his way of testing whether I was worth listening to, that made a world of difference. It changed the way I perceived him and made me totally lose that fear and unease that I felt around him that came from what I believed was a constant threat/possibility of violence. That made me feel able to open up and just be natural around him. And that I think made him feel more able to do the same with me.

    There, I dunno how representative that is of general ENTP/ESTP relations, but it's my experience, so maybe something there will ring a bell.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  2. #52
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    3,487

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    You didn't?

    Doth my eyes deceive me? Is this another fairy magic?



    Fair enough, that was said yesterday, but still the point remains true, the ENTP like work on himself in ways the SP doesn't understand or value... your point being?

    The bigger issue is Steller comes in says that his ENTP friend is crazy and has NPD, when you get under the skin Stellar is expecting the ENTP to change for his benefit... rather than trying to adapt himself... which is the point....


    He can change himself easier than he can influence his firiend...

    Of course if he had better influencing skills he may not need to change himself so much...

  3. #53
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    4,909

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    Fair enough, that was said yesterday, but still the point remains true, the ENTP like work on himself in ways the SP doesn't understand or value... your point being?
    You used the word "MORE", which, as I already pointed out is a COMPARATIVE term [redundancy seems to be the word of the day with you, I've never seen an ENTP not get such an obvious point and have to point it out so many times, in so many ways].

    My previous response to you:
    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    By telling that person that YOU KNOW, that HIS FRIEND works INFINITELY MORE [this is a comparative term, btw] on HIMSELF than Stellar does.

    There's a DIFFERENCE between 'works on self in ways the SP doesn't understand' aka, works in DIFFERENT ways (NT versus SP), and, the word MORE (inferring less than the other party, NT>SP).

    But, I guess since you used it yesterday, it doesn't count (not even gonna attempt the 'logic' of this one, to induce more head-hurting). Whatever.

  4. #54
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    3,487

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    You used the word "MORE", which, as I already pointed out is a COMPARATIVE term [redundancy seems to be the word of the day with you, I've never seen an ENTP not get such an obvious point and have to point it out so many times, in so many ways].

    There's a DIFFERENCE between 'works on self in ways the SP doesn't understand' aka, works in DIFFERENT ways (NT versus SP), and, the word MORE (inferring less to the other party, NT>SP).

    But, I guess since you used it yesterday, it doesn't count. Whatever.
    I don't mind - ENPTs work on aquiring skills, it's one of the main premis....

    Again my point always comes back to the same thing... this guy is expecting someone to change for him... whilest at the same time showing a great deal of reluctuance to even consider that he needs to change in order to make the move from his own side of the fence...

    It's SO much easier to tell a person that they are insane, and not good at explaining their thoughts thans admitting you know nothing much about metal illness and are not making much effort to develop they own comprehension skills.....

    YAWN

  5. #55
    Priestess Of Syrinx Katsuni's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    3w4?
    Posts
    1,238

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    He learned that I'm not a smart alec - I'm just trying to treat everyone as equals, so if I'm using "long words" then it's not because I want to show off or make people feel inferior, as he thought at first, it's just the opposite in fact - to not use long words (which are my natural vocab) would feel to me like I was condescending to the other person and saying they were too stupid to understand if I talk my usual way, so I have to dumb down for them.
    Oh thanks... I've actually always viewed it that way myself. Because it's usually true >.>;; The smart alec part.

    But that explaination makes ALOT of sense, and I'm sure there's the odd person who does think that way =3

    Personally, I try to explain myself in standard terms as often as possible; I have a strong complex vocabulary, but rarely make use of it as it just makes it harder to get my point across in most cases. Spend all my time explaining whot the words mean or waiting for people to grab a dictionary >.>

    In any case, I'll try to evaluate that a bit better from now on. Mosta re probably still being asses about it, and I don't hesitate to call them out when they're misusing a word, because I usually do understand the language they're using >.>

    But anyways!



    As for the rest of this thread, tinkerbell's really going at it a bit harshly, with much personal affront taken. To be blunt, OP shouldn't be taking it at hostility towards themselves though, it sounds alot more like the whole "every 5 seconds someone calls an NT insane because they think differently" thing is pissing her off as a whole and yeu just are getting the brunt of everyone else's mistakes. Admittedly yeu were kind of... yeah... not tactful at all. And didn't recognize such either. I'm no better in that regard often myself, though usually displayed in other venues. But regardless, tinker's gone kind of a bit 'out for blood' type dealie, so I'd not take her too seriously in terms of attacks at the moment. Much of whot she's stating is fairly relevant, though some of it's pretty obviously not accurate at all and more projections onto yeu from everyone else who's screwed up similarly as of late.

    And quite possibly some blame from people she grew up with. I bet it's a repressed childhood thing. *Blows bubbles from pipe to look really smart* Except I actually kind of mean it, the whole NT female thing, growing up is often a long list of people thinking yeu're broken and trying to 'fix' yeu. The ENTP's especially don't have it any better either. So yeah... think yeu're getting more than just a little hostility that isn't really directed at yeu, and yeu just happen to be the current target available.

    Other than that, she does have a few points. Even if it requires hip waders to get through the rest of the... ahem.

  6. #56
    PEST that STEPs on PETS stellar renegade's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    MBTI
    ESTP
    Posts
    1,446

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    The guy has come in and listed out several perfectly normal thing that an ENTP and then said he has a problem because of these perfectly normal things, to the point he suggested to the ENTP that he was mentally ill.
    Actually I'm more perturbed by the fact that you're completely misinterpreting and misrepresenting what's going on. Where I didn't supply information you filled in the blanks and used those assumptions to completely misinterpret the information I did give.

    I NEVER said that I thought he was "mentally ill" because of the attributes of being an NT that I listed in this thread. NEVER. And you jumped the gun and said that I did. I already clarified but you keep insisting that's what I meant.

    I said that I had thought he probably had emotional unstability. And not because his language is abstract but because he's sometimes too quick to take offense at something, get frustrated and eventually angry, all starting with something that seems small.

    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    He wants the ENTP to change for his convienience...
    My convenience? Really? When someone seems constantly irritated at something about you, it's merely an inconvenience? (I'm not saying he is, but sometimes he appears to be.)

    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    That is why he is having a negative responce from the ENTP....
    No, I have a negative response because he thinks I'm not listening, or because of some of my careless habits, for instance.

    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    I am saying he need to look at what he himself is doing to cause the problem, and fix that which suprisingly enough might have the nock on effect of helping the situation.

    The ENTP will dig his heels in.
    So you're saying "the ENTP" will be stubborn therefore I'm the only one who really needs to work on himself?

    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    And no i don't beleive telling your freinds they are insane because they are not emotional and are basically manefesting as an NT is wrong, I don't mind if you dissagree with that...
    "not emotional"? No I was saying he was getting irritated too easily, how is that being non-emotional? I don't think manifesting as the true essence of your temperament is wrong at all, I enjoy the various temperaments.
    -stellar renegade
    coo-oo-ooool this madness down,
    stop it right on tiiiiime!


    Badass Promoter ESTPs:
    [sigpic][/sigpic]

  7. #57
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    3,487

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Katsuni View Post

    As for the rest of this thread, tinkerbell's really going at it a bit harshly, with much personal affront taken. To be blunt, OP shouldn't be taking it at hostility towards themselves though, it sounds alot more like the whole "every 5 seconds someone calls an NT insane because they think differently" thing is pissing her off as a whole and yeu just are getting the brunt of everyone else's mistakes. Admittedly yeu were kind of... yeah... not tactful at all. And didn't recognize such either. I'm no better in that regard often myself, though usually displayed in other venues. But regardless, tinker's gone kind of a bit 'out for blood' type dealie, so I'd not take her too seriously in terms of attacks at the moment. Much of whot she's stating is fairly relevant, though some of it's pretty obviously not accurate at all and more projections onto yeu from everyone else who's screwed up similarly as of late.
    .
    I'm laying it on a bit thick but mainly cutting through the denial that the OP needs to make more of an effort to move half way (which seems to be a total allient concept from his responces) towards fixing his contribution to the problems. I am laying it on thick because it seems pretty cyclical - "the friend needs to change not me".

    Most of what I have said is not emotional - simply rational argument - over coloured with analogies for example ... but I did warn the OP that I have less emotion in post than he may take from them which he got yesterday....


    Quote Originally Posted by Katsuni View Post

    And quite possibly some blame from people she grew up with. I bet it's a repressed childhood thing. *Blows bubbles from pipe to look really smart* Except I actually kind of mean it, the whole NT female thing, growing up is often a long list of people thinking yeu're broken and trying to 'fix' yeu. The ENTP's especially don't have it any better either. So yeah... think yeu're getting more than just a little hostility that isn't really directed at yeu, and yeu just happen to be the current target available.

    Other than that, she does have a few points. Even if it requires hip waders to get through the rest of the... ahem.
    Nope I didn't have a huge issue when I grew up. I am from an NT dominant environment.... so less than most girls got... by miles.

    But there has been several thread here that instead of realising NTs think, feel and deal with things different - they were automatically the root of the problem and needed to change.. despite the posters very filtred view of the issue.

  8. #58
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    3,487

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by stellar renegade View Post
    Also... it was suggested by an INTJ friend that he may have borderline personality disorder. We read over the description and it sounded exactly like him, but when I used that as a defense in an argument, he got really upset, even eventually to the point of crying because, he said, he wanted to feel like his emotions were real and not just some chemical that had gone wrong in the brain.
    This is your suggestion he is mentally ill.....

    Unsurpsingly your firend got upset by that.... his so called friends think he is insane....

  9. #59
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    3,487

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by stellar renegade View Post
    yeah, he usually doesn't like to deliberate to help me understand, and he hates being repetitive (although he'll repeat the same statement the same exact way if I don't operate in response or accord to it).
    (
    He doesn't have the teaching skills to teach you - you don't have the comprehension skill to understand him....

    Either you can choose to develop comprehension skills...

    Or you can ask him to develop better teaching skills...


    the first one is easier for you to influence but he may never get there or want to learn to teach.... If you want to understand what he is talking about - the onus of desire lies in your shoes...


    As for him not wanting to help you understand...deliberately - he probably see that as an insult to you. ENTPs get selfesteem from understanding things under thier own steem... if you intrfere and help him in learning he would see that as possibly humiliating....

  10. #60
    PEST that STEPs on PETS stellar renegade's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    MBTI
    ESTP
    Posts
    1,446

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Thanks. It says a lot that you are so open to wanting to find not just what his issues might be, but how you play into the scenario as well. It shows your value of the friendship, and for that, he (of any type) should be happy to have you as a friend.

    One way to bridge the communication gap, which I've done with my friends on the S/N divide is that they like to know the practicality of theories, the practical application in concrete forms. And, as I love to conceptualize, and the more angles I see a theory, the more I understand/learn it, I love being able to wrack my brain trying to find analogies that explain it at the practical level. There's always one, as a theory is something that gains momentum because of some occurance in the practical, concrete world. So, there's always an association/a thread. If you can show initial interest in what he theorizes about, and ask clear questions that targets specifics of his points, that asks him to make it applicable to the concrete world ["that's pretty cool, I'm trying to follow you, can you expand on X? give examples of how this applies?"], your enthusiam will give him the confidence in his theories [and show him you truly want to know], which may make him work harder at trying to bridge that gap and bringing his thoughts around to a common ground/language.

    Good luck!

    In the end, most times, as humans (beyond type), we just wanna know that there's a presence there at the other end of the line. That's sometimes all the basic comfort one needs. A validation of one's existence, a witness to one's life (and thoughts).
    That's so true. Of course he needs me to listen to and understand him as well. My mom's more the type (ESFJ) who just needs someone to rattle off to even if they're not listening to all the details.

    His theories are practical ones (ENTPs strike me as fairly practical) and he doesn't even use abstract language a whole lot. Where the divide is, is when he uses generalizations about things and when he tries to explain a concept that might occur in everyday life but involves alot of different factors coming together.

    So, I guess in the former I'd have to ask him to give an example and in the latter to just tell him to break it down? I don't know, on that last one he seems to get irritated when I don't get it because it seems real simple to him.

    Thanks for the well wishes.

    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    yeah I'll second Qre:us and sim, what they say rings true for me, as does your friend's thing about insecurity, etc.

    the idea that ENTP's don't struggle with their extraversion is ludicrous in light of the number of threads on this board devoted to ENTP's who've taken a long time to realise that they were not INTP's, because as children/teens and even young adults, they've been very insecure and socially anxious, and struggled to socialise successfully despite feeling driven to do so.

    I know an ESTP and to begin with we didn't get along very well. I thought he was a dumb meat head and he thought I was an airy fairy wuss, and a smart alec, and that I thought I was better than him - well, I guess in all honesty the last one was true in a way in that I thought I was smarter than him, though I never thought being smarter makes you a better person. I used to find him quite frightening because he seemed to me like a loose canon - so willing to become confrontational and (apparently) aggressive in order to "win" a discussion (i.e. intimidate everyone into not voicing their dissent).

    HOWEVER, time passed and we were thrown together, had to work together not by our own choice, and after some uneasy times we started to get to know each other. I realized that his aggression wasn't actually genuine aggression - he was just testing if I believed in what I said enough to stand by it, and I learned that all I had to do was calmly stand my ground and he'd respect that and usually back down. But also that it worked the same way in reverse - if I thought something he said was screwy, I just had to come right out and say it without flinching, and if he felt sure he was right he'd usually stand by it calmly and then I had to back down. I learned that he very rarely actually stands by things when challenged UNLESS he's completely certain he's right, so if he's not backing down, I probably should unless I'm equally sure he's wrong, which seldom happens.

    He learned that I'm not a smart alec - I'm just trying to treat everyone as equals, so if I'm using "long words" then it's not because I want to show off or make people feel inferior, as he thought at first, it's just the opposite in fact - to not use long words (which are my natural vocab) would feel to me like I was condescending to the other person and saying they were too stupid to understand if I talk my usual way, so I have to dumb down for them. And if I point out inconsistencies and stuff, it's because I think their idea/plan/whatever is actually pretty good, and can work, as long as these minor details are given due attention.

    I learned that he's a lot smarter than I thought, he just applies his intelligence in other ways. But all in all I think the biggest revelation to me was about the intimidation/aggression thing. That was the biggest stumbling block for me that made it hard for me to respect him or really see him as someone I could feasibly have a real conversation with - I felt like there was no point, because as soon as I hit on something he didn't understand or didn't like, he'd just start getting all confrontational, and I don't have the inclination or energy to battle through that, so what's the point?

    But once I learned that it wasn't actually true aggression and that he didn't actually intend to fight over those things, that he was just pushing me as it were, to see if I'd fall, I realized it was his way of testing whether I was worth listening to, that made a world of difference. It changed the way I perceived him and made me totally lose that fear and unease that I felt around him that came from what I believed was a constant threat/possibility of violence. That made me feel able to open up and just be natural around him. And that I think made him feel more able to do the same with me.

    There, I dunno how representative that is of general ENTP/ESTP relations, but it's my experience, so maybe something there will ring a bell.
    Interesting! Well, he's definitely the aggressive one (I can see how the roles can be switched). I figure that, for one, I'm less confrontational because I learned to be gentler early on in life when because of different circumstances I acted in a different type and eventually temperament and two, because he's already asserted his aggression in our relationship. Also, SPs in general are supposed to like being charming and smooth, although I know alot of ESTPs do act aggressive sometimes. I do that more often at other places like work. Usually I just like to put up a charming front.

    But other than that I'd say it's about the same. He sees me as a smart person but that's why it frustrates him all the more when I don't get what he's talking about. I used to constantly get the feeling that he thought he was better than me and felt he was very pretentious.
    -stellar renegade
    coo-oo-ooool this madness down,
    stop it right on tiiiiime!


    Badass Promoter ESTPs:
    [sigpic][/sigpic]

Similar Threads

  1. [NF] do you hate ENTPs
    By sakuraba in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 242
    Last Post: 08-19-2016, 02:43 AM
  2. Does it drive you crazy to have nothing to do at work?
    By Athenian200 in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 38
    Last Post: 11-11-2013, 05:40 PM
  3. Shine on, you crazy diamonds.
    By Gish in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 07-30-2011, 02:50 PM
  4. [ENTP] A crazy ENTP Si question...
    By sculpting in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 10-29-2010, 02:20 PM
  5. Things That Make You Crazy About Your Own Type
    By CzeCze in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 42
    Last Post: 07-23-2009, 01:46 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO