User Tag List

First 34567 Last

Results 41 to 50 of 90

  1. #41
    PEST that STEPs on PETS stellar renegade's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    MBTI
    ESTP
    Posts
    1,446

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    You get it I wont labour... dont' take offense at the other thread... it's just really common for non NTs to think NTs are mentally ill when there is nothing wrong with them at all. So don't take offense...
    I don't think NTs are mentally ill. I consider him to be the smartest guy I know. I thought he seemed emotionally unstable, that's completely different from mentally ill and I now think I was very likely wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    Yes - NT's are often very direct in saying whats in their heads... they dont get you are recieving it in an emotional way..... You will know when an NT is angry
    Yeah, he often says you'll know when he's angry. I don't know how many times I've heard him say that and also talk about how much he values blunt honesty. He also seems to be surprised (not that he displays the emotion of surprise) sometimes at my emotional reactions to something he says.

    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    Yes of course you are. its the only person you can change after all (and to be honest it's you that are stating you have a problem not him) . IF he is telling you all the time to fix your life - then you may have a degree of justification at point out his flaws... but right now you are attacking him with your point of view... and it is an attack.
    It's harder to work on my ability to be offended than it is to just let him know that the way he's coming across is offensive. And if a person doesn't want to work on that I don't see what the point in trying to maintain healthy interaction is.

    He does do what you said, or at least he used to more before. If someone attacks me, I attack back. At least eventually. Usually I just try to comply at first until it builds up.

    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    You wantting to work on yourself is your own choice, his desire not to work on himself is his choice..... and trust me he works on himself infinately more than you do, but not in a way you value or perhaps see - ENTPs are all about self growth...

    You are not his judge or boss or parent, it's not up to you to tell him he needs to work on himself... Support him if he asks for help or sounds like he needs a friend but don't tell him he needs to change who he is. it would bug the hell out of you if people pointed out your weak points and told you to change...
    What I'm saying is, it's ok for him to be the judge or boss or parent and point out my weak points, but not ok for me to do it to him? That's what I'm saying is going on here. He does it to me way more often than I ever do to him. I usually never openly confront him.

    The only way I'd like for him to work on himself is in his approach to others including me. I don't dictate to others, that's not even the SP way.

    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    He doesn't have the teaching skills to be able to reframe his thinking into a style you cna get.

    You might want to suggest to him to draw you a diagram or other style that you wold get - different people have different learning styles.

    He may not have the communication skills to change how he communicates his idea to you - so he might not be abel to convert his idea to a picture or to less abstract language.
    In order for his ideas to be valued he will need to work on that as an issue for him... there are book on how to communicate your ideas... but that is his issue.
    Yeah, he doesn't want to invest the energy to do so. He usually just gets frustrated when I don't get it because he feels like I'm just not paying attention or listening closely enough. He'll say something like, "I don't know how I can put it any other way." I think I'm possibly even less abstract than others because he says that other people understand what he's saying better than I do.

    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    You may choose to practice understanding abstract concepts a very SP problem. SP's use concrete language and are less impaginative.. NT's think and use abstract language... You can change yourself but improving your abstract thinking through practice of looking communication you dont' normally get easily.

    IT's hard for you because your way of learning is different so it all feels a bit messed up when you hear it... suggest he explains it in a way you can get... he might not be able to do that, but at least you understand he is not just repeating himself because either of you are stupid - you just have different language skills, he just lacks breath of communication and you lack the ability to understand abstract concepts...
    "looking communication"? What did you mean to say there?

    In order for me to understand it, I'd have to be as mentally quick as him at just grabbing it all at once. I don't know how I can start doing that, it'd be a change in consciousness and probably personality type.

    I guess I'll just have to start asking for examples.

    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    Most peoples idea of a good time is to be criticised in a public space... always a pleasure... Id' respond badly too.. He is likely to be defensive
    You mean it's a pleasure to do it? haha, even though YOU'D respond badly? Jeesh.

    He loves trolling, it's a fun pastime of his.

    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    hope this helps
    somewhat, this last round
    -stellar renegade
    coo-oo-ooool this madness down,
    stop it right on tiiiiime!


    Badass Promoter ESTPs:
    [sigpic][/sigpic]

  2. #42
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    7w6 sx/so
    Socionics
    ILE
    Posts
    5,554

    Default

    I've actually pointed that out before about ENTPs, saying I was one of the few actually willing to be honest about it, and I just got accused of being ESFP because, wow go figure, most ENTPs weren't willing to be honest about it.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  3. #43
    PEST that STEPs on PETS stellar renegade's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    MBTI
    ESTP
    Posts
    1,446

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    I was making a point... if he fixed the things that bother you he stops being an entp....ok not nessesarily SJ.
    No, not getting upset at the drop of a hat wouldn't make you another temperament or any less of an ENTP. At least I don't think it would.

    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    Example - he needs to learn new ways to explain thing, he just repeats his idea...

    A solution - you develope alternative learning styles to fit his communication....

    That one is not his problem... you are an S and use concrete language he is an N and uses abstract... he is not wrong you are not right.... You are both different from each other.... But it's you who want him to change rather than being more flexble yourself.....

    there are always multiple ways of looking at a problem, one empowers you to do something the other leaves you powerless and depndant on someone doing things for you
    Are you serious? You're asking me to stop trying to get him to be a different temperament, yet you're doing that very thing to me by suggesting that I should change and insulting me by saying that I'm powerless and dependent on others because I'm an S? What BS. It sounds like you have a huge bias, no wonder you saw everything I said in a negative light.

    Instead of suggesting we compromise like in any healthy relationship you're suggesting I'm the one who needs to change. He shouldn't be flexible, I should. I get it now.

    Ridiculous and I'm not gonna be taken by it.

    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    Steller - you seem to not see that you are pointing your finger at this guys NT'ness and finding fault... thats the basic premis of his personality - it's not a problem that requires a solution.... He is different to you that is all. My adive is to work on your tollerance levels unless there is a big problem you need to resolve
    I AM NOT TRYING TO GET HIM TO STOP BEING AN NT!!!!!!!1

    GAH
    -stellar renegade
    coo-oo-ooool this madness down,
    stop it right on tiiiiime!


    Badass Promoter ESTPs:
    [sigpic][/sigpic]

  4. #44
    PEST that STEPs on PETS stellar renegade's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    MBTI
    ESTP
    Posts
    1,446

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    I've actually pointed that out before about ENTPs, saying I was one of the few actually willing to be honest about it, and I just got accused of being ESFP because, wow go figure, most ENTPs weren't willing to be honest about it.
    hah, wow. Thanks for your honesty.

    And what specifically are you talking about? Being sensitive?
    -stellar renegade
    coo-oo-ooool this madness down,
    stop it right on tiiiiime!


    Badass Promoter ESTPs:
    [sigpic][/sigpic]

  5. #45
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    3,487

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by stellar renegade View Post
    I don't think NTs are mentally ill. I consider him to be the smartest guy I know. I thought he seemed emotionally unstable, that's completely different from mentally ill and I now think I was very likely wrong
    You suggested he had NPD - which is a mental illness,.....and no it's not funny in any way....

    Quote Originally Posted by stellar renegade View Post
    He also seems to be surprised (not that he displays the emotion of surprise) sometimes at my emotional reactions to something he says.?

    Thats probably because he doesn't understand he is debating without emotions and you are taking umberance.... He doens't know why.... He was just saying the XY is implusable...

    This is an area you are almost always going to haved to cut him some slack over, because I doubt he is going to ge pink and fluffy over night.

    Quote Originally Posted by stellar renegade View Post
    It's harder to work on my ability to be offended than it is to just let him know that the way he's coming across is offensive. And if a person doesn't want to work on that I don't see what the point in trying to maintain healthy interaction is.?
    Thats my point, you beleive it's easier for him to change than it is for you to change... the basic premis for your thinking is wrong.

    Focus on being more tollerant and understaning of him... if you constantly tell him he is not doing what you expect he will react badly - same as you would to him.

    Quote Originally Posted by stellar renegade View Post

    What I'm saying is, it's ok for him to be the judge or boss or parent and point out my weak points, but not ok for me to do it to him? That's what I'm saying is going on here. He does it to me way more often than I ever do to him. I usually never openly confront him.
    ?
    Now you didn't say he was doing this... simply tell him what I'm telling you. He needs to work at not fixing you and check himself out.... Don't do his diagnosis of what is wrong for him, and don't let him do it too you... but you don't need to be nasty about it... calm and rationally put.

    Quote Originally Posted by stellar renegade View Post

    The only way I'd like for him to work on himself is in his approach to others including me. I don't dictate to others, that's not even the SP way.
    ?
    Again you are suggesting he change for you.... PLEASE TELL EE YOU DON'T DO THIS SHIT TO YOUR GIRLFREINDS....

    Frankly I don't love you enough to even contemplate changing for you....

    Quote Originally Posted by stellar renegade View Post
    Yeah, he doesn't want to invest the energy to do so. He usually just gets frustrated when I don't get it because he feels like I'm just not paying attention or listening closely enough.
    ?
    I wouldn't either if I was on the receiving end of what you have described, you can hardly blame him for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by stellar renegade View Post
    He'll say something like, "I don't know how I can put it any other way." I think I'm possibly even less abstract than others because he says that other people understand what he's saying better than I do.
    ?
    He doesn't know how to communicate in non abstract fashion, sometimes his ideas will not transfer back into concrete langauge, you need to deal with the gap between your coms style and his... it may never be bridged...

    You can look at practicing understanidng the abstract thought as easily as he can practice communicatng in Concrete...

    An analogy... A frenchman walks into a pub and is ecosted by an Englishman, The englishman asks the time... the Frnechman says he doens't speak English...

    > who is to blame?

    Quote Originally Posted by stellar renegade View Post

    "looking communication"? What did you mean to say there?
    Visulat literacy - diagrames, drawings etc...


    Quote Originally Posted by stellar renegade View Post
    In order for me to understand it, I'd have to be as mentally quick as him at just grabbing it all at once.
    No you don't you need to learn abstract communications skills which are as easy for you to learn as it is for him to learn to speak concrete... answer the Frnechman/Englishman scecnario above...

    IT's not about your mental ability it's about aptitued to understand ideasl


    >I guess I'll just have to start asking for examples.

    would probably be helpful rather than screaming "you keep taking french to me"... you own half the problem

  6. #46
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    4,909

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    You wantting to work on yourself is your own choice, his desire not to work on himself is his choice..... and trust me he works on himself infinately more than you do, but not in a way you value or perhaps see - ENTPs are all about self growth...
    This is awfully presumptuous and condescending in its arrogant perception. You are basically telling a person that THEY should worry about themselves and their growth, and not THEIR friends, because one can only know to the extent of their own self [agreed], HOWEVER, in the same breath, giving your assumptions about how YOU think the person (stellar) is COMPARED to their friend. That is, to 'trust you' that you know that a virtual stranger works infinitely less on himself than his friend (who you are hearing about from said person). How do you deduce such things?

    ENTPs, as a theoretical archetype may be about self-growth, but, at the individual level, if they are unhealthy, or have had life courses filled with conflict, this is not a predictable given.

    Commentaries on a particular person, who happen to be ENTP, are not an attack on you individually. There is no need to defend a virtual stranger's friend because of a type the stranger perscribed to him, which happens to be your own. All you can do is talk of an ENTP's thought-process in general and accept that a fucked-up ENTP can indeed exist, at a case level.


    Quote Originally Posted by stellar renegade View Post
    WOW!

    And I thought I was good at turning the tables... man, that was genius.

    Yeah, I see how that could be hurtful now. I feel really dumb for not putting myself in his shoes. Is that an S thing to do? I was going to say, "but I didn't do anything irrational" but when I thought about if I were in his situation, it suddenly clicked. He was fine with the hypothesis but not when we threw it in his face. Yikes, I suck...

    Also, that last bit there about having problems communicating his whole life is really insightful. Have you had the same issue? Good grief, poor guy. I'm really starting to understand where he's coming from now...
    Thanks. It says a lot that you are so open to wanting to find not just what his issues might be, but how you play into the scenario as well. It shows your value of the friendship, and for that, he (of any type) should be happy to have you as a friend.

    One way to bridge the communication gap, which I've done with my friends on the S/N divide is that they like to know the practicality of theories, the practical application in concrete forms. And, as I love to conceptualize, and the more angles I see a theory, the more I understand/learn it, I love being able to wrack my brain trying to find analogies that explain it at the practical level. There's always one, as a theory is something that gains momentum because of some occurance in the practical, concrete world. So, there's always an association/a thread. If you can show initial interest in what he theorizes about, and ask clear questions that targets specifics of his points, that asks him to make it applicable to the concrete world ["that's pretty cool, I'm trying to follow you, can you expand on X? give examples of how this applies?"], your enthusiam will give him the confidence in his theories [and show him you truly want to know], which may make him work harder at trying to bridge that gap and bringing his thoughts around to a common ground/language.

    Good luck!

    In the end, most times, as humans (beyond type), we just wanna know that there's a presence there at the other end of the line. That's sometimes all the basic comfort one needs. A validation of one's existence, a witness to one's life (and thoughts).

    Edit [to add]: Just saw Enki's response -
    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    some answers in here are pretty passive aggressive.

    Just saying. You might want to fix that, us NTs are supposed not to like bias.
    Word!

  7. #47
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    3,487

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    This is awfully presumptuous and condescending in its arrogant perception. You are basically telling a person that THEY should worry about themselves and their growth, and not THEIR friends, because one can only know to the extent of their own self [agreed], HOWEVER, in the same breath, giving your assumptions about how YOU think the person (stellar) is COMPARED to their friend. That is, to 'trust you' that you know that a virtual stranger works infinitely less on himself than his friend (who you are hearing about from said person). How do you deduce such things?

    The guy has come in and listed out several perfectly normal thing that an ENTP and then said he has a problem because of these perfectly normal things, to the point he suggested to the ENTP that he was mentally ill.

    He wants the ENTP to change for his convienience...

    That is why he is having a negative responce from the ENTP....

    I am saying he need to look at what he himself is doing to cause the problem, and fix that which suprisingly enough might have the nock on effect of helping the situation.

    The ENTP will dig his heels in.

    And no i don't beleive telling your freinds they are insane because they are not emotional and are basically manefesting as an NT is wrong, I don't mind if you dissagree with that...

  8. #48
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    4,909

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    The guy has come in and listed out several perfectly normal thing that an ENTP and then said he has a problem because of these perfectly normal things, to the point he suggested to the ENTP that he was mentally ill.

    He wants the ENTP to change for his convienience...

    That is why he is having a negative responce from the ENTP....

    I am saying he need to look at what he himself is doing to cause the problem, and fix that which suprisingly enough might have the nock on effect of helping the situation.

    The ENTP will dig his heels in.
    Whoosh! Over your head. My point was you are not only wrong but hypocritical to jump on a person's ass because they are assuming TOO much about a person (friend has mental illness), when you just did the same thing. By telling that person that YOU KNOW, that HIS FRIEND works INFINITELY MORE [this is a comparative term, btw] on HIMSELF than Stellar does. How you know this - that is the issue I brought up...as in your words, all stellar needs to do is 'trust you'...a complete stranger to the situation.

    My commentary to YOU was nothing to do with me agreeing how stellar looked at his friend, as I already told him about his assumptions. It was about the hypocricy in what you told stellar to NOT do, while doing the same kind of thing YOURSELF.

    And no i don't beleive telling your freinds they are insane because they are not emotional and are basically manefesting as an NT is wrong, I don't mind if you dissagree with that...
    Yeah, nice try, but, no. You missed my whole point as this was not what I 'agreed' with, see my initial response to stellar:

    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    I.e., basically talk about a close friend with each other on the status of their "mental illness", with neither of you being professionals in the subject, and then approaching him about it, and being suprised by his reaction. Is that rational on YOUR part? Can you see why he had insecurity and confusion over this action of yours?
    Try another ?

  9. #49
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    3,487

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Whoosh! Over your head. My point was you are not only wrong but hypocritical to jump on a person's ass because they are assuming TOO much about a person (friend has mental illness), when you just did the same thing. By telling that person that YOU KNOW, that HIS FRIEND works INFINITELY MORE [this is a comparative term, btw] on HIMSELF than Stellar does. How you know this - that is the issue I brought up...as in your words, all stellar needs to do is 'trust you'...a complete stranger to the situation.
    Woooosh - completely over my head because I didn't say that.. I've never said his friend was working on himself or that he was doing it ore, his friend probably isn't... but I can tell that Stellar is attcking his friend - because he is saying he is and then getting bewildered as to why his freind is reacting badly and sniping

    Maybe that was in your head because it was in your last post... not mine

  10. #50
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    4,909

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    Woooosh - completely over my head because I didn't say that.. I've never said his friend was working on himself or that he was doing it ore, his friend probably isn't... but I can tell that Stellar is attcking his friend - because he is saying he is and then getting bewildered as to why his freind is reacting badly and sniping

    Maybe that was in your head because it was in your last post... not mine
    You didn't?

    Doth my eyes deceive me? Is this another fairy magic?

    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    You wantting to work on yourself is your own choice, his desire not to work on himself is his choice..... and trust me he works on himself infinately more than you do, but not in a way you value or perhaps see - ENTPs are all about self growth...

Similar Threads

  1. [NF] do you hate ENTPs
    By sakuraba in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 242
    Last Post: 08-19-2016, 02:43 AM
  2. Does it drive you crazy to have nothing to do at work?
    By Athenian200 in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 38
    Last Post: 11-11-2013, 05:40 PM
  3. Shine on, you crazy diamonds.
    By Gish in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 07-30-2011, 02:50 PM
  4. [ENTP] A crazy ENTP Si question...
    By sculpting in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 10-29-2010, 02:20 PM
  5. Things That Make You Crazy About Your Own Type
    By CzeCze in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 42
    Last Post: 07-23-2009, 01:46 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO