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  1. #21
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stellar renegade View Post
    Yeah, I get that now.


    Oh ok, thanks. I misinterpret the Rational's tendency to be blunt with being just plain angry. I always find a more subtle way to put things unless I'm driven to anger. Thanks for clarifying.
    I'm not in the least bit angry with you - just pointing out you are saying ENTPs are crazy (check out the title)...

    NTs will state things that may feel hostile to be on the receiving end but there is no emotion in it... ENTPs characters are hard to define or to pin point to one specific set of behaviours...

    It's really easy to see other people's issues but less easy to identify and work on our own. The NT will work on his own stuff at a time when he wants to do that for himself....

    He sees the big picture.... without huge efforts he may never get you to see it with any degree of clarity....

  2. #22
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Decline View Post
    You're sure he's ENTP?
    I'm not sure I'd be socailly anxious when new to a forum - actually I might be... but certainly around new people I'd be anxious... I'm much better in smaller groups with people I know and trust...

    I'm SUCH a show off in large groups, which to an extent feels a bit ailien to me. In smaller groups I can enjoy the extroverness of my character without feeling I'm over doing it....

    L

  3. #23
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stellar renegade View Post
    no...? Why do you ask that?
    You being spotlighted by a virtual stranger regarding mental illness makes you question THAT person's motive, and possibilities of what they (might) have 'seen' in you to ask the virtual stranger for clarification.

    Now change the virtual stranger to a best friend, one of the security areas in most people's lives, and you won't be at such a loss:

    I was at a loss, because personally if I had even the slightest hint that there was some chemical gone screwy in my brain I'd be breathing down the neck of whatever doctor could get me the pills. haha.
    regarding his reaction to what you and your INTJ friend did to him:

    Quote Originally Posted by stellar renegade View Post
    Also... it was suggested by an INTJ friend that he may have borderline personality disorder. We read over the description and it sounded exactly like him, but when I used that as a defense in an argument, he got really upset, even eventually to the point of crying because, he said, he wanted to feel like his emotions were real and not just some chemical that had gone wrong in the brain.

    I kind of understand that, though, and it seems to go well with the Rational's need for a sense of competence. This theme was repeated again when he said though he was taking some of my St. John's Wort pills that he'd rather not have to rely on them. He actually used the same word competence though I hadn't discussed the concept with him. It was really interesting.
    I.e., basically talk about a close friend with each other on the status of their "mental illness", with neither of you being professionals in the subject, and then approaching him about it, and being suprised by his reaction. Is that rational on YOUR part? Can you see why he had insecurity and confusion over this action of yours?

    You guys' perceptions are usually over my head, and thus your reasoning and therefore where you are coming from are usually over my head, too. It's frustrating and I want to figure out a way to solve it.
    Do you see how easily you get frustrated when opinions don't "sweetly" guide you towards an expected progress of yours? It's human nature...maybe this insight of a moment of frustration on your part, and how easily it can be induced, might allow you to understand a lifetime of frustration on his part, induced by his upbringing and miscommunication/lack of connection with those he considers the closest to him.

    Just a thought.

    PS - I personally don't understand this concept of social anxiety in a forum (web), of all places.

  4. #24
    Senior Member SerengetiBetty's Avatar
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    This person is your best friend yet you spend time trying to convince him he has a personality disorder, you're surprised that your friend argues with you yet it's the friend who's crazy?

    I think the problem with this particular ENTP is that he doesn't know when it's time to delete someone from the friend list. Someone unable to understand that a individual is more than just than MBTI personality type - any other type of singular definition- is definitely not someone I would personally hang out with, so I nominate this ENTP for sainthood for not having throat chopped the OP at least twice.

  5. #25
    PEST that STEPs on PETS stellar renegade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    I'm not in the least bit angry with you - just pointing out you are saying ENTPs are crazy (check out the title)...
    I just meant I don't understand you. I respect your utter brilliance and I recognize that that's what causes the communication barriers between us. I didn't mean you were actually crazy. Sorry.

    (Why would I put the bowing smiley at the bottom if I didn't reserve a great deal of respect for you guys??)

    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    NTs will state things that may feel hostile to be on the receiving end but there is no emotion in it... ENTPs characters are hard to define or to pin point to one specific set of behaviours...
    See, yeah, he'll say he's only frustrated when his tone of voice sounds angry. It's hard because I always listen to tone of voice more than I do the words people use.

    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    It's really easy to see other people's issues but less easy to identify and work on our own. The NT will work on his own stuff at a time when he wants to do that for himself....


    So I'm supposed to work on my own issues even though he doesn't want to work on his? That seems like a huge unfair double standard to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    He sees the big picture.... without huge efforts he may never get you to see it with any degree of clarity....
    yeah, he usually doesn't like to deliberate to help me understand, and he hates being repetitive (although he'll repeat the same statement the same exact way if I don't operate in response or accord to it).

    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    I'm not sure I'd be socailly anxious when new to a forum - actually I might be... but certainly around new people I'd be anxious... I'm much better in smaller groups with people I know and trust...
    No, only when they criticize him.

    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    I'm SUCH a show off in large groups, which to an extent feels a bit ailien to me. In smaller groups I can enjoy the extroverness of my character without feeling I'm over doing it....
    Makes sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    You being spotlighted by a virtual stranger regarding mental illness makes you question THAT person's motive, and possibilities of what they (might) have 'seen' in you to ask the virtual stranger for clarification.

    Now change the virtual stranger to a best friend, one of the security areas in most people's lives, and you won't be at such a loss:



    regarding his reaction to what you and your INTJ friend did to him:



    I.e., basically talk about a close friend with each other on the status of their "mental illness", with neither of you being professionals in the subject, and then approaching him about it, and being suprised by his reaction. Is that rational on YOUR part? Can you see why he had insecurity and confusion over this action of yours?



    Do you see how easily you get frustrated when opinions don't "sweetly" guide you towards an expected progress of yours? It's human nature...maybe this insight of a moment of frustration on your part, and how easily it can be induced, might allow you to understand a lifetime of frustration on his part, induced by his upbringing and miscommunication/lack of connection with those he considers the closest to him.

    Just a thought.

    PS - I personally don't understand this concept of social anxiety in a forum (web), of all places.
    WOW!

    And I thought I was good at turning the tables... man, that was genius.

    Yeah, I see how that could be hurtful now. I feel really dumb for not putting myself in his shoes. Is that an S thing to do? I was going to say, "but I didn't do anything irrational" but when I thought about if I were in his situation, it suddenly clicked. He was fine with the hypothesis but not when we threw it in his face. Yikes, I suck...

    Also, that last bit there about having problems communicating his whole life is really insightful. Have you had the same issue? Good grief, poor guy. I'm really starting to understand where he's coming from now...
    -stellar renegade
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  6. #26
    PEST that STEPs on PETS stellar renegade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SerengetiBetty View Post
    This person is your best friend yet you spend time trying to convince him he has a personality disorder, you're surprised that your friend argues with you yet it's the friend who's crazy?
    I apologized and we reconciled over it, but you're right. I was trying to help and I felt compassion for him but I just didn't see that I was being too certain of myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by SerengetiBetty View Post
    I think the problem with this particular ENTP is that he doesn't know when it's time to delete someone from the friend list. Someone unable to understand that a individual is more than just than MBTI personality type - any other type of singular definition- is definitely not someone I would personally hang out with, so I nominate this ENTP for sainthood for not having throat chopped the OP at least twice.
    Yeah, makes sense, he does put up with alot, but I didn't think till now that most of it was that big of a deal. This stuff usually rolls like water off a duck's back for me and I usually don't understand why it doesn't for others too. We've been best friends for ten years or more, it's just that things have been REALLY tense in the last year or so.

    I see him as more than an MBTI type, I don't know where you get that I don't, I was just trying to use his type to figure out a possible way of better interaction. Please don't assume I'm just being an asshole. I suck at the NF diplomacy stuff, everyone has weaknesses for their strengths.........
    -stellar renegade
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  7. #27
    PEST that STEPs on PETS stellar renegade's Avatar
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    Thanks for all your help everyone, I'm gonna keep up with this thread but even what I've learned so far I think will start helping me in my interactions with him.
    -stellar renegade
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    stop it right on tiiiiime!


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  8. #28
    Senior Member SerengetiBetty's Avatar
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    the thing is it's really frustrating if you have everyone trying to figure you out as if you were some monkey in a lab, and i think that happens to many intuitive types since our society seems to be sensor focused.

    my suggestion would be to just forget about trying to figure him out, take him as he is, spend time with him and don't worry about any potential personality disorders unless he leaves a severed head in your freezer.

  9. #29
    PEST that STEPs on PETS stellar renegade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SerengetiBetty View Post
    the thing is it's really frustrating if you have everyone trying to figure you out as if you were some monkey in a lab, and i think that happens to many intuitive types since our society seems to be sensor focused.
    Well no, he's making alot more sense to me just after reading this thread. Thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by SerengetiBetty View Post
    my suggestion would be to just forget about trying to figure him out, take him as he is, spend time with him and don't worry about any potential personality disorders unless he leaves a severed head in your freezer.
    haha. That's what I plan on doing. Some of the activities he likes are hard for me to get into, such as more strategy-oriented games and shows with complex rapid dialogue. But at the very least I'll show my appreciation for his love of those things when I find it hard to get into them.
    -stellar renegade
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  10. #30
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stellar renegade View Post
    I just meant I don't understand you. I respect your utter brilliance and I recognize that that's what causes the communication barriers between us. I didn't mean you were actually crazy. Sorry. :
    You get it I wont labour... dont' take offense at the other thread... it's just really common for non NTs to think NTs are mentally ill when there is nothing wrong with them at all. So don't take offense...

    Quote Originally Posted by stellar renegade View Post
    See, yeah, he'll say he's only frustrated when his tone of voice sounds angry. It's hard because I always listen to tone of voice more than I do the words people use.

    Yes - NT's are often very direct in saying whats in their heads... they dont get you are recieving it in an emotional way..... You will know when an NT is angry

    Quote Originally Posted by stellar renegade View Post

    So I'm supposed to work on my own issues even though he doesn't want to work on his? That seems like a huge unfair double standard to me.

    Yes of course you are. its the only person you can change after all (and to be honest it's you that are stating you have a problem not him) . IF he is telling you all the time to fix your life - then you may have a degree of justification at point out his flaws... but right now you are attacking him with your point of view... and it is an attack.

    You wantting to work on yourself is your own choice, his desire not to work on himself is his choice..... and trust me he works on himself infinately more than you do, but not in a way you value or perhaps see - ENTPs are all about self growth...

    You are not his judge or boss or parent, it's not up to you to tell him he needs to work on himself... Support him if he asks for help or sounds like he needs a friend but don't tell him he needs to change who he is. it would bug the hell out of you if people pointed out your weak points and told you to change...

    Quote Originally Posted by stellar renegade View Post

    yeah, he usually doesn't like to deliberate to help me understand, and he hates being repetitive (although he'll repeat the same statement the same exact way if I don't operate in response or accord to it).

    He doesn't have the teaching skills to be able to reframe his thinking into a style you cna get.

    You might want to suggest to him to draw you a diagram or other style that you wold get - different people have different learning styles.

    He may not have the communication skills to change how he communicates his idea to you - so he might not be abel to convert his idea to a picture or to less abstract language.
    In order for his ideas to be valued he will need to work on that as an issue for him... there are book on how to communicate your ideas... but that is his issue.

    You may choose to practice understanding abstract concepts a very SP problem. SP's use concrete language and are less impaginative.. NT's think and use abstract language... You can change yourself but improving your abstract thinking through practice of looking communication you dont' normally get easily.

    IT's hard for you because your way of learning is different so it all feels a bit messed up when you hear it... suggest he explains it in a way you can get... he might not be able to do that, but at least you understand he is not just repeating himself because either of you are stupid - you just have different language skills, he just lacks breath of communication and you lack the ability to understand abstract concepts...


    Quote Originally Posted by stellar renegade View Post
    No, only when they criticize him.
    Most peoples idea of a good time is to be criticised in a public space... always a pleasure... Id' respond badly too.. He is likely to be defensive

    hope this helps and really don't be offended by the other thread...

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