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  1. #11
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    I don't see "principles" as things like personal directives for behavior like a Fi user may see them;
    Maybe that's a good way to put it -- Fi sees "directives for behavior."

    I do have some "relational rules" that I've derived that seem to create maximum potency and efficiency for relationships, but they're still more principles to me ("these things work") and THEN comes any value I attach to them personally.


    For example, "efficiency" of a process or system is something I think any good system or theory incorporates. If it's dirty or messy, I don't like it, doesn't fit my idea of what a good theory or system is.
    Exactly. Clean and elegant is a priority. Then again, could we call this a 'value' for INTPs? After all, not everyone shares it, and it's an arbitrary rule that we apply to what crosses our desk.

    You'll notice that as Einstein got older, he had several ideas about the Universe that he found difficult to accept because they violated those principles. He hated Quantum Mechanics because he loved the idea of a deterministic universe, and he hated the idea of a dynamic universe, because he had always thought it eternal. It's why he invented things like the cosmological constant, simply to satisfy those principles.
    Yup, good anecdote.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #12
    That chalkboard guy Matthew_Z's Avatar
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    2. As part of the core of my ethics, there is the Axiom of Non-aggression. There's also a few cliches in there such as "don't do unto other what you would not want done unto you." I would define these as my "principles."
    If a deaf INFP falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?

  3. #13
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post



    Exactly. Clean and elegant is a priority. Then again, could we call this a 'value' for INTPs? After all, not everyone shares it, and it's an arbitrary rule that we apply to what crosses our desk.

    I suppose we could, it essentially serves a similar purpose, however I just hate the term "value" . Typical, I know. Partially because, I think I do have a rudimentary set of values that really don't serve a logical purpose beyond, like I said, directives for relational behavior and just seem to stem from upbringing instead of consciously derived truths. The problem is, when you ask me what they are, I couldn't tell you, and my mind would say they're more like guidelines than actual values



  4. #14
    Senior Member Kollin's Avatar
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    I think it would depend on how one defined principle. I was looking at the profile on intp.org. It referred to it in reference to their detachment and their mission to provide clarity. I look at these principles as something that rubs them the wrong way and they've got to do something to correct it.
    AKA: Choss

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  5. #15
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    ... The problem is, when you ask me what they are, I couldn't tell you, and my mind would say they're more like guidelines than actual values
    well, yeah, of course. I have a few things I feel strongly about (and even a lesser subset that I can actually articulate, normally they're "vague" like you describe)... but I will still flex them in a situation because I know they're just personal feelings and I instinctively want to be open.

    "Logical" principles are a different matter, I'm bound by them and can't ignore them.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #16

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    Principles are notions about how the universe works---the immutable invariants of the universe.

    I am gong to speak metaphorically for a bit.

    We have, at best, a tentative grasp of the principles at work in any system, at any level of abstraction.

    Nevertheless, we would be wise to heed these principles. Though tentatively grasped, a principle is believed to be invariably strong, if we do indeed have hold of principle.

    If what we believe is a principle turns out to not be one, that is, if it is not invariant, then we need to try and grab hold of what is believed to be a true relevant principle.

    Now to speak more concretely. There are many ideas that a particular person could think is a principle. Examples include

    1) Honesty is the best policy.
    2) The truth shall set you free.
    3) Work can be fun.

    These are simplistic. But when I was younger I thought all of these to be principles. Even today, I find these to ring true. Though there is some doubt cast on them lately.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
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    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
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  7. #17
    Member nocebo's Avatar
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    After studying information gathered in different contexts (experimentation through Ne), there's some things that remain the same despite context.

    These eventually become things that I expect to remain the same no matter what, and build upon them. Sometimes, I need to go back and alter them based on new data, but until then... I can accept the constants as always being so.

    ex. "Something thrown in the air always comes back down" would be a principle, something we believe is always constant due to the numerous trials that agree. But then... after studying gravity and space (gathering new info), the principle will need to be fixed before we can build on it.

    I think that for INTPs, this method carries over to our philosophy on life also, but it's not limited to just that.

  8. #18
    Rainy Day Woman MDP2525's Avatar
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    I think you'll figure out your "principles" or "values" when and if they are challenged. You'll be surprised at what acts or words instantly grab your attention. Then there's that immediate "I won't stand for this" feeling you get when you hear something said or see someone act in a certain manner that doesn't jive with your internal beliefs. It will be instantaneous. No use thinking about it beforehand. It always sneaks up on you anyway.
    ~luck favors the ready~


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  9. #19
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    I totally understand what some have said about things being clean, organized, and "tidy". An example of this is when any one of my loved ones call me on the telephone. Especially if I'm working or heavily engaged in Ti (analyzing something, reading something really interesting, or researching something I want to learn), I sometimes don't want to pick up the phone because I know, logically, that I only have 24 hours in a day and if I spend 1 hour on the phone, that's one hour less that I have to research, learn, explore, engage my Ti, work, sleep, eat, exercise, etc. So, I want to keep it "clean" and "neat" by thinking to myself, "I will talk to this person because I love them, but I really need to be off the phone in 15 minutes. 15 minutes is a fair amount of time to talk and catch up on things - especially since we'll probably talk again in 2 days." And I will make a mental note of what time it is at that moment (because these conversations often drag on far longer than I'd like and I feel like I've wasted time). So, after 30 minutes have gone by and they're still talking away (and I've had a failed attempt or three to end the conversation politely), it starts to get into that "messy" territory for me. Some of these conversations have gone on for more than an hour after I specifically told myself "15 minutes max". That violates a principle of mine, I suppose - because I know it's cutting into my productivity - and as INTP's know, we have this "zone" we get in - where we don't want to be interrupted - because we're on a roll. And sometimes when we are interrupted it can be difficult for us to get back into something at the same level of intensity/concentration.

    Anyways, to bring "values" into this, I often feel something inside of me that makes me feel "bad" (on various levels - depending on who is calling and "how important" the conversation happens to be) for having to cut them off. I have hurt people's feelings at this point. When it gets really "messy" for me and is cutting into my idea of "neat" and "tidy", my friends/family that are "F" have gotten very offended and hurt by me cutting them off (even if I explain my reasoning). So, there are some "values" down in there that make me feel bad for not giving them the time that they want from me. I will sometimes think, "I shouldn't 'limit' my time with family" or, "One day I'll have a child and limiting my kid to 15 minutes of interaction here or there would be selfish and unloving". And I don't think I would do that to my child, but I still find myself doing it to other family members.

    But, being an INTP, my "principles" usually win out. I may have some values inside of me that are making me feel bad or selfish for not being more generous with my time, but I just can't stand the inefficiency of some of these conversations. I will think, "This just isn't GOING anywhere. We have lost all logic in this conversation. We're talking about what the waiter said to you at the restaurant yesterday. I just don't care very much and it's cutting into my time." So, I will try to politely get off the phone.

    I am trying to be more balanced in this area. It's a challenge for sure, but I believe it's good for us INTP's to be giving of our time and of ourselves because, afterall, it isn't all about us. And if we let Ti and our "principles" run wild, we will push away/hurt a lot of people. And that's never good. I think we are wired to keep our list of close friends fairly short, but I would like to be an unselfish friend to those individuals.

    That said, I still don't want to talk on the phone for more than 15 minutes, if I can help it. Let's talk, and let's get to the point, and keep the conversation meaningful and logical." And then we'll catch up again in a few days. Unless you're an "N", then we may be able to talk into the wee hours of the night. Sometimes those "N" to "N" conversations can go for hours and you still don't want to stop talking.

  10. #20
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    The problem is, when you ask me what they are, I couldn't tell you, and my mind would say they're more like guidelines than actual values
    Quote Originally Posted by MDP2525 View Post
    I think you'll figure out your "principles" or "values" when and if they are challenged. You'll be surprised at what acts or words instantly grab your attention. Then there's that immediate "I won't stand for this" feeling you get when you hear something said or see someone act in a certain manner that doesn't jive with your internal beliefs. It will be instantaneous. No use thinking about it beforehand. It always sneaks up on you anyway.
    These two things ring true for me. If someone asked me to make my values or principles explicit, I would probably stare at them blankly. However, in situations where one of them gets violated, I usually have a sense of what is wrong.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

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